Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

North Berwick Burgh Extension Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],

Read a Second time, and ordered to be considered To-morrow.

Oral Answers to Questions — NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

WIDOWS' AND CHILDREN'S PENSIONS.

Mr. OLIVER: 1.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether in any circumstances the widow and children of a man who died of his war disability are eligible for pension, or allowances from the Special Grants Committee, if the marriage took place after the origin of the disability or the man's discharge from the Services?

The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): It has always been a principle of the Pension Warrants that the responsibility of the State should be limited to the man's family obligations as existing at the date of contraction of the war disability. Clearly, therefore, no pension or allowance can be granted, either by the Ministry or the Special Grants Committee, where the marriage took place after the man's discharge or demobilisation. This must also be the normal position where the marriage took place before discharge, but after the man had been removed from duty on account of the fatal disability, but very exceptional cases of this kind would be specially considered.

Mr. OLIVER: Do I understand that the Minister means by that reply that if a
man marries after his disability, he only does so at the risk of placing his wife at a greater disadvantage than would have been the case had he not joined the Army and fought for his country?

Major TRYON: The responsibility of the State is limited to the man's family obligations at the date that he contracted the disability.

Mr. OLIVER: Is not the responsibility to the man and to the man's wife, and if the man's wife is to be treated in this way, is she not at a disadvantage as compared with one who has married a civilian?

Mr. KIRKWOOD: Does not the reply given by the right hon. Gentleman go to show that this man is penalised because he was a soldier in the British Army during the War?

Major TRYON: No. It shows that, he was fully compensated according to the Warrant for the disability he incurred during the War.

ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS (MORRIS JONES).

Mr. WOMERSLEY: 2.
(for Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKE) asked the Minister of Pensions if he will make a grant to Private Morris Jones, No. 1,375, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 258, Bolton Road, Small Heath, to cover the cost of frequent renewal of trousers, caused by the wear and tear of the artificial limbs supplied by the Ministry after amputation?

Major TRYON: I am unable to trace any application of this nature from the man. I may say that the continued improvements in the type of limbs supplied has reduced the extent of wear to clothing to a minimum and that the rate of pension in the case of limbless men has been fixed specially high to cover all ordinary consequences of having to wear an artificial limb. I am, however, having this case investigated to make sure that there is no defect in the limbs supplied that would cause abnormal wear to the man's clothing.

FATAL ACCIDENT (CADBY HALL).

Colonel DAY: 4.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to the death of Joseph Floyd, who was killed by being
caught in a revolving shaft whilst working at Cadby Hall, W.; and whether the shafting had been fenced in as laid down by the Factories Act?

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): Yes, Sir, I have received a report on this case. It would appear that the shafting was not fenced as required by the Act, and I have authorised proceedings being taken against the occupiers for the offence.

Colonel DAY: In view of the number of accidents which have happened in this way lately, will the right hon. Gentleman ask his inspectors to take particular notice of this sort of thing in different factories?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The answer I have given shows that they do take particular notice. I think in this case they have taken particular notice and reported the matter to me, and I have authorised a prosecution.

Colonel DAY: How did the accident happen if they took particular notice? Should not the shafting have been properly fenced in before the accident and not after?

Mr. SCURR: Does the right. hon. Gentleman think that he has sufficient inspectors in that area?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have said more than once that I am not satisfied that I have sufficient inspectors, and I hope that when the Factory Bill passes into law we shall have a further staff of inspectors.

Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Is it the practice of the Department to inspect a new factory before it is put into operation?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think so, but perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down.

CONDEMNED PERSON (CHILDREN'S VISIT).

Sir ROBERT NEWMAN: 5.
asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that a child, six years of age, was permitted recently to be taken to Strangeways Prison, Manchester, to see his mother on
the eve of her execution; and why, as this is the second execution of a woman in England during the last three years after 15 years without such executions, he has departed from the previous practice of the Home Office in this respect?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the latter part, my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. There has been no departure from the Home Office practice in this matter.

Sir R. NEWMAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason why, for 15 or 20 years, no such execution has taken place, and now there have been two during the last three years? Were these crimes fewer during that 15 years than they are now?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: There has only been one such case since I have been Home Secretary, and it is a very disagreeable duty to have to deal with these cases. There has only been one case of a woman in which I thought it absolutely essential that the law should take its course, and that is the only one since I have been Home Secretary.

Mr. PALING: Is it the case that there has been a greater disposition not to grant reprieves since the present Home Secretary has been in office?

HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw!

Mr. SPEAKER: Questions with regard to advice given to the Crown are not permissible.

SOUTHWARK, CONVICTION (WILLIAM JONES).

Mr. HAYES: 6.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the circumstances surrounding the arrest and subsequent conviction of Mr. William Jones, 3, Wagstaffe Buildings, Sumner Street, Southwark; whether he is aware that Police Constable 478, M Division, Charles Hutchings, who declined to give evidence in support of the sergeant who effected the arrest, but who was not called upon to give evidence either for or against the prisoner, has been fined, reprimanded, and transferred as the result of disciplinary proceedings taken against him; that the police constable has resigned rather than submit to the alleged unjust treatment; and
whether, in view of the effect of police evidence upon which the prisoner was convicted and sentenced, he will consider the establishment of a tribunal under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, to inquire fully into this matter, on the ground that it is one of definite and urgent public importance?

Mr. HADEN GUEST: 7.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that since the arrest of William Jones in Sumner Street, Southwark, on 8th May, for an alleged offence under the Emergency Powers Regulations, and for which, on police evidence, he was found guilty and sentenced to three months' imprisonment, Police Constable Charles Hutchings has resigned from the Metropolitan Police rather than submit to disciplinary action taken against him for matters arising out of his protest against the manner of the arrest of, and the evidence given against, Jones; and whether, in view of the issues raised in respect of both the constable and the convicted man, and in order that there shall be no question of a miscarriage of justice in either case, he will authorise the whole matter to be inquired into by a tribunal set up under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am inquiring into the case referred to in this and the following question, and shall be obliged if the hon. Members will put the questions down again next week.

Sir JAMES REMNANT: Will the right hon. Gentleman then be in a position to say anything about the necessary legislation for giving this appeal tribunal—which, if it has not been definitely promised, has at all events been many times spoken of—with the object of preventing cases like this arising?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Perhaps my hon. Friend will postpone his supplementary question until I have completed my inquiries.

Mr. HAYES: Will the officer I have referred to have an opportunity of being heard at the court of inquiry, and will the inquiry be without prejudice to his case?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think the hon. Member had better allow me to
make my own inquiries first, because the question involves a great deal of detail, and I want to be satisfied on this question before I give an answer.

Mr. HADEN GUEST: On what day shall I repeat my question?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: This day week.

SPEED LIMIT (GREAT WEST ROAD)

Captain BRASS: 8.
asked the Home Secretary whether he can state the average width of the road on that part of the Great West Road where the Metropolitan Police trap was operating recently, when 243 persons were summoned for exceeding the speed limit?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Fifty feet, Sir.

Captain BRASS: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is really a reasonable place to have a trap where 10 cars at least can go abreast?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: When local authorities complain of excessive speed of cars on any road under the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan Police, it is my duty to call the attention of the police to the complaint I have received, and it is their duty to take such steps as they think proper.

Captain BRASS: Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that a police trap where the police are hidden stops people from going fast?

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not essential that the speed should be moderate just where the roads are wide, because of the temptation of cars overtaking and so leading to accidents?

Mr. SPEAKER: These are arguments, and the only question here is the width of the road.

Captain BRASS: 9.
asked the Home Secretary how many of the 243 persons recently trapped on the Great West Road were summoned for driving to the danger of the public; and how many, for merely exceeding the statutory limit of 20 miles an hour?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The 243 persons recently proceeded against were summoned as follow:

For two offences alternatively, namely, exceeding the speed limit, and also for driving at a speed dangerous to the public
232


For exceeding the speed limit only
11


The results of the summonses are: Convictions for driving at a speed dangerous to the public
11


For exceeding the speed limit
139


Cases not yet heard
93

Captain BRASS: Do I understand from that answer that the people who have exceeded the speed limit were prosecuted for two offences?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: My hon. and gallant Friend will realise that a man may be driving at a speed greater than is allowed by law, and may also at the same time be driving at a speed dangerous to the public.

Colonel DAY: Will the Home Secretary give instructions that where people are stopped in these traps, the officer shall show them where the traps are, so that they can verify the distances?

Mr. R. MORRISON: In view of the very large number of prosecutions the law does not seem to have any deterrent effect upon excessive speed, and will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of introducing legislation to increase the penalties?

Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Does the right hon. Gentleman or the police know of any motorist who habitually drives within the speed limit?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think my hon. Friend has got a good many of us into a difficulty over that question, but in these cases I am informed by the police that the speed limit was very considerably exceeded.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury whether he will discourage the Conservative party from making these reflections upon the officers of the law?

Oral Answers to Questions — HOUSING.

HOUSES COMPLETED, GREAT BRITAIN.

Mr. H. WILLIAMS: 19.
asked the Minister of Health if he is now in a position to state the total number of houses completed in Great Britain in the 12 months ended 31st March, 1926?

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): The total number of houses completed in England and Wales during the year ended 31st March, 1926, was 173,426— 106,987 with State assistance and 66,439 without State assistance. As regards figures for Scotland, I would suggest that the hon. Member should address a similar question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland.

Mr. WILLIAMS: Is that number larger than the number for the previous 12 months?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir; considerably larger.

ENFIELD.

Colonel DAY: 20.
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the overcrowding in the Enfield district; and what action is being taken by the local authority concerned to overcome the existing housing shortage?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware of the need for houses in the Enfield district. The local authority have obtained my approval to a scheme for the erection of 609 houses under the Housing Act, 1923. Of this number, contracts have been arranged for 563, and 221 have been completed. The local authority have also undertaken, so far, to pay subsidy in respect of 171 houses to be built by private enterprise.

Mr. W. THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to tell the House whether any subsidy will be granted after October next?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is another question.

Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Is it not the case that the overcrowding in the Southern districts is far greater in proportion than it is at Enfield?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter for argument.

FINSBURY, SHOREDITCH, AND HOLBORN.

Mr. GILLETT: 24.
asked the Minister of Health the number of dwelling-houses pulled down in the boroughs of Finsbury, Shoreditch and Holborn during the year 1925, and the number of new dwelling-houses erected?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As the answer involves a tabular statement, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

Borough.
Number of dwelling houses pulled down in 1925.
Number of new dwellings erected.


Finsbury
Nil
Nil


Shoreditch
16
59


Holborn
13
25

HOUSING AND TOWN PLANNING ACT.

Mr. GROTRIAN: 27.
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been called to the recent decision in the case of Northwood and another v. the London County Council; and whether he intends to take any steps to mitigate the hardship caused to persons whose lands and premises are acquired compulsorily under Section 46 of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1925, under such circumstances as those in the above decision of the High Court?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My attention has been called to this case. The question of legislation to amend in some respects Section 46 of the Act of 1925 has been receiving my attention, but I am unable to make a statement in regard to the matter at the present time.

POLICE (COUNTY AUTHORITIES).

Mr. HURD: 28.
asked the Minister of Health what progress is being made by county authorities in England in arranging to build houses for their own police, and thus lessen the housing shortage in the villages?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: A number of County councils are carrying out schemes for the provision of police cottages both in connection with subsidy schemes and otherwise. I will have particulars of both classes got out and will send the information to my hon. Friend.

Mr. HARRIS: Would it be possible to give the same powers to the Commissioner of Police in London, as there is the same difficulty in London of getting houses for the police?

UNEMPLOYMENT, GOLBORNE (POOR LAW RELIEF).

Mr. R. YOUNG: 21.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that approximately 200 unemployed men have to walk each week from Golborne to Atherton, a return journey of 10 miles, for the purpose of seeking relief from the board of guardians, and whether he can take any steps to mitigate this hardship while the present condition of unemployment lasts?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I understand that the facts are as suggested in the first part of the question. The guardians have arranged that relief for the men's families shall be paid immediately after the men have appeared before the Relief Committee, thus avoiding a second weekly journey, and since this system has been introduced no complaints have been received.

Mr. R. YOUNG: 22.
asked the Minister of Health whether any instructions have been given to boards of guardians to make the granting of relief conditional on the recipient undertaking to repay the amount granted; whether he is aware that Golborne residents, when applying for relief, have been asked to sign an agreement undertaking to pay back the relief granted and empowering his employer to deduct sums up to 5s. per week from his wages and hand the same to the collector of the guardians; and, if not, will he inquire why this is being done and issue instructions that every recipient of relief, before signing such an agreement, be informed that the signing of it is not compulsory for the purpose of receiving relief?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. The question whether relief should be given on loan is a matter for the decision of the guardians themselves. In the case of the Leigh Union, I am informed that the recipients are asked at what rate per week they are prepared to repay the relief, and ordinarily sign
an agreement such as is suggested. The ordinary rate of repayment is 1s. or 1s. 6d. per week, and the Clerk to the guardians has no knowledge of any case in which the rate is more than 2s. 6d. per week. I see no reason to interfere with the manner in which the guardians are exercising their discretion.

Mr. YOUNG: Was the right hon. Gentleman informed that one recipient was refused because he would not sign this agreement?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir; I was not informed of that.

SEAMEN'S PENSION FUND.

Mr. WOMERSLEY: 23.
asked the Minister of Health the amount of cash in the Fund formerly known as the Lascar Fund at the date of transference, and the amount now standing to the credit of the Fund; and how many pensions have been awarded to aged seamen since the date of the transference?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am informed by the governing body of the Seamen's Pension Fund, formerly known as the Lascar Fund, that the amount of the Fund taken over as at 30th June, 1918, was £108,658 12s. 5d., and at 31st December, 1925, the total amount of the Fund was £657,347 8s. 11d. The number of pensions awarded up to 31st December, 1925, was 2,097. The Report of the Governing Body for the year 1925 will, it is anticipated, be published in the course of the present month.

BRENNAND MILL, BURNLEY (FAULTY CLOTH).

Mr. T. SHAW: 10.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a case in which the owners of Brennand Bill, Burnley, required a weaver in their employ to purchase a piece of cloth as an alternative to dismissal; whether he is aware that His Majesty's inspector of factories has expressed the opinion that the firm's action was a breach of the Truck Acts; can he state why the firm has not been prosecuted; and whether he has any further statement to make on the matter?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have received a report from the chief inspector of factories. It is clear that the firm were guilty of a breach of the Truck Acts, but as there was considerable fault on the part of the worker I contented myself with cautioning the firm, who have undertaken that the offence shall not be repeated.

Mr. SHAW: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was the fault on the part of the worker, and whether it was a breach of the law?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The worker had been making faulty cloth. The matter has been referred to the trade union concerned, and I think the course I have taken has met with universal satisfaction.

Mr. SHAW: May I ask whether the inquiry was conducted before a Court, and whether the right hon. Gentleman's inspectors have instructions to see that the law is observed?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It is not in every case that a prosecution takes place. In this case the offence was a first offence. A caution has been administered, and an undertaking has been given that the offence will not be repeated. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that if it is repeated a prosecution will follow.

Mr. SHAW: That, if I may say so, does not answer the first part of my supplementary question. I asked the Home Secretary whether the investigation in which he says the worker was proved to be at fault was conducted before any legal authority, or who conducted it?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: My Department.

Dr. WATTS: Is the Home Secretary aware that Lancashire people are always glad to buy a piece of damaged cloth, which they can get at very low rates?

DEMONSTRATIONS, BOW AND BROMLEY.

Mr. LANSBURY: 13.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many processions of the unemployed have marched from the Bow and Bromley Division of Poplar to take part in demonstrations held in Trafalgar Square
or Hyde Park during the past three years; on how many of these occasions did disorder or riot take place; how many persons were arrested and charged with offences; and is he now in a position to inform the House of the nature of the evidence which led him to consider that the proposed demonstration on 11th July would lead to disorder?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It would be difficult without much research to give the details asked for in the first part of the question, but I readily admit that the demonstrations to which the hon. Member refers have been on the whole orderly. There have, however, on occasions been breaches of the peace, and the demonstration proposed was prohibited under the Emergency Regulations on the ground that there was reason during the present emergency to apprehend that it would conduce to a breach of the peace, and thereby cause undue demands to be made upon the police.

Mr. LANSBURY: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House the evidence on which that decision was arrived at, and, further, is it not the fact that the Bow and Bromley Division has been for years one of the most peaceful and law-abiding Divisions in the country?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I can only say that I act upon the advice and representations to myself of the Commissioner of Police, who is responsible. If he assures me that he apprehends a breach of the peace, I act on that. With regard to the second part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, I will, if he desires it, pay special attention to Bow and Bromley, and see what the result is.

Mr. LANSBURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the best way to create disorder is to prevent the holding of public meetings; and will he give to the House and to the people in Bow the evidence on which the police have told him that they are too dangerous to be allowed to hold a meeting?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The police have not told me anything of the kind. The police came to me and stated that in their opinion this was a demonstration which was likely to lead to a breach of the peace. They are responsible. If,
however, the hon. Member says his people are law-abiding, I will endeavour to see whether they can hold meetings. I do not desire to prohibit meetings, or anything of that kind.

PROBATION OFFICERS.

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: 14.
asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the advisability of making it a condition of the employment of the agents of voluntary societies as probation officers that they should not be required to take part in the collection from private charity of that part of their emoluments which is received from the voluntary society?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I agree that such a practice as that referred to would be very undesirable, and, while I do not anticipate that under the new conditions it will continue, I shall be prepared if necessary to take steps to discourage it.

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: 15.
asked the Home Secretary what steps he proposes to take, whether by the appointment of inspectors or otherwise, to secure that grants from public funds shall not be paid to any probation authority which is not efficiently performing its duties under Part I of the Criminal Justice Act, 1925?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The Probation Grant, which will only be payable in respect of approved expenditure, will be carefully administered by the Children's Branch of the Home Office, with the assistance of the financial officers and the probation and other inspectors attached to that branch. It is not at present proposed to appoint any additional inspectors.

COMMUNIST PAPERS.

Mr. SAKLATVALA: 17.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the heading given by him as Statement of Expenditure, to Document No. 26, on page 58 of the Communist Papers published by his Department, is not a correct description of such a rough memorandum of some estimate; and if he will take steps to correct the same in any future editions?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: If the hon. Member will suggest a more appropriate note to describe the nature of Document 26, I shall be glad to consider it. Perhaps the addition of the word "contemplated" would meet his wishes

Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: May I ask who is responsible for the headings to these documents? For example, there is one alleging participation by Arcos, which is not borne out by the document. Who is responsible for that?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The Secretary of State is responsible.

Captain BENN: May I ask whether there are documents, other than those published, to support the veracity of that heading?

Commander WILLIAMS: Might not the Home Secretary also look through some of the various Liberal publications?

Mr. BASIL PETO: 32.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Blue Book containing the Communist Papers is now out of print, and that the public are awaiting the second edition; and whether he can say what was the number of the first edition printed, and what is the reason for the delay in the production of a further supply for the public?

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill): Owing to unexpectedly heavy demands, I regret that this publication was out of print for a short time last week, but copies are now available. The first edition was of 2,500 copies.

Captain BENN: Will the headings that were inserted on the authority of the Home Secretary be substantially altered in the document?

Mr. McNEILL: I cannot say.

Mr. RILEY: Is there a profit out of the first edition of the book, and what use will the right hon. Gentleman make of it?

Mr. McNEILL: I must have notice of that question.

Mr. SAKLATVALA: Will some measures be adopted to see that the Government description will be made more accurate, and would the Government be prepared to reduce the price
and make a public edition if the Communist party are prepared to take over a certain number?

Mr. McNEILL: I am not aware of any inaccuracy in the publication.

Colonel DAY: How many will the second edition comprise?

CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.

Mr. RAMSDEN: 26.
asked the Minister of Health the number of pensions which have been awarded to widows and orphans up to the end of June?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Up to the end of June the figures for England, Scotland and Wales were 148,897 widows' pensions covering, with children's allowances, about 420,000 persons and 13,505 orphans' pensions.

Mr. RAMSDEN: How does that compare with the Estimate?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is considerably less than the Estimate we had originally been given of the number, but the claims are still coming in.

Mr. TAYLOR: What is the total number of applications?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I could not give that without notice.

Mr. B. PETO: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider making some further provision for the many exceptionally hard cases?

Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps the hon. Member will put that on the Paper.

Mr. BARKER: 30.
asked the Minister of Health if he has received the resolutions passed by the Association of Approved Insurance Societies at the annual conference on 4th and 5th June, 1926, requesting the Government to abolish the means limit in every case under the Old Age Pensions Act, and to establish the principle that insurance under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act shall be open to all persons on equal terms; and will he introduce legislation at an early date to give effect to these principles?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not received the resolutions referred to in the first part of the question. The answer to the second part is in the negative.

Mr. TOWNEND: Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to extend the period in which voluntary contributors can take advantage of the scheme, in accordance with the reply he gave on 30th March to a question in my name?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that arises out of the question.

Mr. WOMERSLEY (for Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKE): 29.
asked the Minister of Health what amount has been saved in rates during the first six months of the operation of The Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925; and how much, approximately, he is expecting will be saved in rates during the next six months by the operation of that part of the Act giving full old age pension irrespective of means?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: According to returns which I received from boards of guardians in England and Wales in respect of the period to 27th March last the direct saving to the poor rates by reason of the grant of pensions and allowances under the Contributory Pensions Act was at the rate of £1,768,000 per annum. When account is taken of the saving in Scotland, the total figure may be taken at approximately £2,000,000 per annum. As regards the second part of the question, I expect that there will be a further substantial saving but materials are not at present available on which a reliable estimate can be based.

Mr. TAYLOR: Does the Minister desire to effect further savings in the rates by an additional tax on wages?

GOLBORNE (MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH).

Mr. R. YOUNG: 25.
asked the Minister of Health whether his approval has now been given to the appointment of a medical officer of health for Golborne, Lancashire; and whether the gentleman appointed has the Diploma of Public Health qualification, in conformity with the terms of the advertisement when candidates for the position were sought?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have informed the council that, as the candidate selected
by them does not possess the requisite qualifications, I am not at present prepared to give a sanction to his appointment, which would enable them to obtain repayment from the County Fund of one-half of the salary of the officer.

FRENCH DEBT TO GREAT BRITAIN.

Sir FRANK NELSON: 31.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the subsequent political changes in the French Government, he is in a position to confirm that Great Britain would receive, during the current financial year from France, the sum of £4,000,000 on account of the French War Debt, as promised in April last by M. Péret, the then French Finance Minister?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): I have no doubt whatever that the promise given to me by M. Péret in the name of the French Government will be duly fulfilled.

Sir F. NELSON: May we. understand that the promise is absolutely conditional?

Mr. CHURCHILL: When a promise is definitely made by a responsible Minister of a foreign Government, one has every reason to believe it will be adhered to. That is certainly my hope.

"BRITISH GAZETTE."

Mr. WALLHEAD: 33.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will issue a complete and detailed statement of the expenditure and revenue in connection with the publication and distribution of the "British Gazette"?

Mr. McNEILL: In due course an appropriation account will be presented for the Emergency Services Vote, which includes this service. The account will be subject to the audit of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who will report thereon to Parliament.

Mr. WALLHEAD: Will that report contain the number of copies issued?

Mr. McNEILL: I cannot say.

Oral Answers to Questions — GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

RATES AND TAXES.

Major GLYN: 34.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the total sum paid in rates and taxes on offices used by Government Departments within the Metropolitan area, and how many such offices are leased; and what is the total sum paid in rent?

Mr. McNEILL: A sum of £635,000 was paid during the last financial year in respect of contributions in lieu of rates to the rating authorities in the County of London on account of premises owned or hired by the Crown. The Crown does not pay taxes. The annual sum paid in rent in respect of 559 hired or leased premises in the Metropolitan area is £483,000.

Mr. KIRKWOOD: Why does not the Crown pay taxes?

Mr. McNEILL: Because taxes are paid to the Crown.

MAIDSTONE TAX OFFICE.

Mr. BRIANT: 56.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department as representing the First Commissioner of Works whether he has been able to acquire better accommodation for the purposes of the Maidstone Tax Office, especially since it is officially admitted that the present accommodation is defective from the point of view both of the public and of the staff?

Major Sir HARRY BARNSTON: Premises in which better accommodation for the Maidstone Tax Office can be provided are at present under consideration with a view to their acquisition.

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE.

FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.

Mr. W. THORNE: 35.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that recently a Belgian was fined at Crewe Police Court for allowing foreign meat-wrappings to come into contact with live stock on his farm; that the defendant imported bacon from the Continent, the wrappings of which were the subject of the charge; that he had mixed imported bacon with the pigs' food on his farm;
and that as a result of these acts there has been an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the district; and if he will now undertake to revise the existing prohibition so as to make it applicable only in reference to bacon imported in wrappings and pigs with hair on?

The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Guinness): I am aware that a man was fined £15 at Crewe for allowing wrappings in which bacon had been imported to come in contact with swine. The Order infringed was the Foot-and-Mouth Disease (Packing Materials) Order of 1925. This Order was designed to prevent wrappings of all imported meat (beef, mutton, bacon, etc.) from being brought into contact with British animals. Foreign meat and bacon may itself be free from disease but, because it is packed in places receiving live animals, the wrappings may become contaminated after the meat is packed. Had this Order been obeyed, it is possible that the outbreak at Crewe would not have occurred. I, therefore, see no reason to modify the existing prohibition on the entry of fresh carcases into this country from the continent, but I intend to give the widest publicity to the conviction at Crewe in order to call the attention of stock owners to the Foot-and-Mouth Disease (Packing Materials) Order of 1925.

MEAT PRICES.

Mr. W. THORNE: 36.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will give the official prices for Scotch short sides, English long sides, Argentine chilled hind and fore quarters of beef, Scotch mutton, New Zealand lamb, the two grades of veal, and the two grades of pork for the first Thursday of the week in 1924 in which the Royal Commission on Food Prices commenced their public sittings and for the first Thursday in July, 1925, and for the first Thursday of July, 1926, respectively; and if he will show the percentage increase or decrease as between the period at which it was felt necessary to hold a public investigation into alleged profiteering in the meat trade and those ruling at the last of these dates?

Mr. GUINNESS: With the hon. Members' permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving the required particulars.

The following statement gives the official prices in London on the dates mentioned

—
Thursday, December 11th, 1924.
Mean.
Thursday, July 2nd, 1925.
Mean.
Thursday, July 1st, 1926.
Mean.
Percentage Increase or Decrease at 1st July, 1926, December compared with 11th, 1924.


Beef —
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
Per cent.


Scotch Short Sides.
8
0
8
8
8
4
7
10
8
6
8
2
7
4
8
4
7
10
— 6.0


English Long Sides.
5
8
6
6
6
1
6
0
6
10
6
5
5
6
6
4
5
11
—2.7


Argentine H.Q. chilled.
4
2
4
8
4
5
5
0
5
4
5
2
4
10
5
4
5
1
+15.1


Argentine F.Q. chilled.
3
2
3
6
3
4
2
5
2
9
2
7
2
10
3
0
2
11
—12.5


Mutton—





















Scotch mutton
9
0
9
8
9
4
8
4
9
4
8
10
7
8
8
8
8
2
—12.5


Lamb—





















New Zealand
8
4
9
0
8
8
7
4
8
4
7
10
6
4
7
0
6
8
—23.1


Veal—





















English, 1st grade
6
8
9
4
8
0
6
4
8
4
7
4
7
4
9
8
8
6
+6.2







Eng. best.




Eng. fat.









English, 2nd grade and 3rd grades.
4
8
5
8
5
2
5
4
6
0
5
8
6
0
6
8
6
4
+22.6


Pork—




Eng. bobbies.




Eng. bobbies.









English best (under 10 st.).
7
0
7
4
7
2
6
0
6
6
6
3
9
0
9
6
9
3
+29.1


English best (10 to 15 st.).
6
8
7
0
6
10
5
8
6
4
6
0
8
4
9
0
8
8
+26.8


English best (15 to 20 st.).
6
0
6
8
6
4
5
10
6
0
5
11
7
10
8
6
8
2
+28.9

SMALL HOLDINGS.

Mr. RILEY: 38.
asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of applications to county councils and county borough councils from ex-service men and others for land for small holdings waiting to be dealt with on 31st March, 1926?

Under the Land Settlement Scheme Councils were required to give preference to ex-service men, with the result that, since the War, very few civilian applicants have been provided with holdings. By a decision of the Government in 1920 the preference was limited to ex-service men who applied for holdings before 1st December, 1920. The required information is as follows:


—
Approved but not yet provided with holdings.
Awaiting interview or standing over.


1.—Number of applications from Ex-Service men:




(a) Made before 1st December, 1920
2,526
771


(b)Made after 1st December, 1920
1,316
3,291


2.—Number of applications from civilians
2,770
4,173



6,612
8,235

Mr. RILEY: 39.
asked the Minister of Agriculture the total additional acreage

in the question for various classes of meat:

Mr. GUINNESS: As the reply contains a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member' permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT,

Following is the reply

of land acquired by county councils, borough councils, and the
Ministry of Agriculture, respectively, from 1st January, 1925, to 31st March, 1926, and the number of additional tenants settled upon such land by the respective authorities?

Mr. GUINNESS: The area acquired by county councils during the period stated was 697 acres, and the number of holdings provided on such area 57. No land was acquired by councils of county boroughs or the Ministry, but 884 acres of land previously acquired by the Ministry for farm settlements and let on lease as ordinary farms came in hand, and an area of 696 acres was divided into 22 small holdings, the remainder being added to existing holdings.

Mr. RILEY: Is the amount of the land referred to likely to be at all adequate to supply the applicants who are waiting?

Mr. GUINNESS: No, certainly not; and that is why we are proposing to make further legislative provision for the supply of holdings. The hon. Member's question covered the period at the end of the ex-service men's settlement scheme which we are now winding up.

Mr. KIRKWOOD: When are we going to get this legislation which is going to present an opportunity to thousands of these men who are anxious to get on the land?

Mr. GUINNESS: I hope we shall introduce a Bill in a week or two.

Commander WILLIAMS: Should we not get the Bill a little quicker if there was more order on the other side?

AGRICULTURAL LAND (BUILDING).

Mr. PALIN: 37.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will give figures showing how much agricultural land has been taken for building purposes from the area returned as agricultural land between the years 1900–1914, and 1914–1925?

Mr. GUINNESS: I regret that I am not in possession of this information.

Oral Answers to Questions — POST OFFICE.

TELEPHONES (NEW INSTALLATIONS).

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 42.
asked the Postmaster-General in which
exchange areas outside the London district and the Hull district there is a delay of more than three weeks in installing new telephones; and in which areas are applicants informed that their orders cannot be extended owing to shortage of plant?

The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Viscount Wolmer): The extension of the telephone service is proceeding in all districts, but although every endeavour is made to forecast future developments, in a certain percentage of streets or areas the demand from time to time temporarily overtakes the supply, and occasionally extensive works, such as the laying of a new main cable, are necessary and involve a delay of some weeks. The list of areas in which there is a shortage of telephone plant therefore fluctuates from day to day, but every endeavour is made to overtake arrears as speedily as possible.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is there any delay through lack of capital at the disposal of the Department?

Viscount WOLMER: I suppose if the Government had an unlimited amount of money we could supply everyone with telephones at a very reduced rate.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is not the service remunerative?

LETTER POSTAGE, CANADA.

Mr. HURD: 43.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the inland penny letter rate, which came into force in Canada on the 1st July, is also to apply to Canadian letters to the United States and Mexico; and whether he will enter into negotiations for a similar reduction from three to two cents per ounce on Canadian letters to Great Britain?

Viscount WOLMER: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but I am making inquiries as to the conditions under which this arrangement has been made and will communicate further with the hon. Member.

Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: Could not letters be carried more cheaply from Canada to Great Britain than from Canada to Mexico?

Viscount WOLMER: Yes, I think they could.

Mr. HARRIS: Is not this a form of Imperial Preference?

CANADA (IMPORTS FOR GREAT BRITAIN).

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: 44.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the per-

The following statement shows the aggregate values of the Imports for consumption into the Dominion of Canada during each of the years 1923, 1924 and 1925, and during the first three months of 1926, together with the values of the Imports recorded as of United Kingdom origin in each period, and their proportion to the respective totals. Similar information for later periods has not yet been received.


Year.
Total Imports for Consumption.
Imports for Consumption from United Kingdom.*



£
£
Per cent.


1923
193,617,177
33,121,509
17.1


1924
180,712.114
33,294,212
18.4


1925
184,320,362
33,562,770
18.2


1926 (Jan.-Mar.)
63,515,000
10,592,367
16.7


*Including Imports of Irish Free State origin prior to 1st April, 1924.

ARMS AND AMMUNITION (MANUFACTURE).

Mr. RENNIE SMITH: 45.
asked the Prime Minister if he will give the figures for the latest year available of the total amount of arms and ammunition manufactured in this country for all the fighting services; and the amounts manufactured under private and Government firms, respectively?

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): It would not be in the public interest to give the information asked for by the hon. Member.

Captain BENN: Are we not under a pledge in the Covenant of the League of Nations to see that the private manufacture of arms ceases?

The PRIME MINISTER: I do not think so.

Mr. SMITH: Cannot we possibly have any figures?

The PRIME MINISTER: My answer is that it has never been the practice to give the amount of ammunition and arms manufactured in the country, because it

centage of the import trade of Canada done by this country during the years ending 31st December, 1923, 1924 and 1925, and for the six months ending 30th June, 1926?

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): The answer contains a table of figures, and the hon. Member will, perhaps, agree to my circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

is considered to be rather detrimental to the national interests.

Mr. SMITH: Is the Prime Minister not aware that the League of Nations has indicated that the private manufacture of arms and ammunition should cease, and is it not therefore desirable that the practise of refusing to give these figures should cease?

The PRIME MINISTER: That is another question.

Mr. SNOWDEN: If the Prime Minister is not in a position to give the full figures, can he give the proportions manufactured by private firms and by the Government?

The PRIME MINISTER: I will consider a question of that kind if it is put down.

Captain GARRO-JONES: Can the Prime Minister say how, if every Government adopts that view, it will be possible to ensure any reduction in armaments?

The PRIME MINISTER: Quite frankly, I cannot follow that reasoning.

Captain GARRO-JONES: If the League of Nations lays down certain limitations of armaments, how can we ensure that
that limitation will be adhered to if every Government keeps its manufacture of armaments secret?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is a hypothetical question.

INDIA (POLITICAL AND TRADE CONDITIONS).

Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: 46.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can give any indication as to the prospects of the House having an opportunity of debating the political and trade conditions of India before the end of this Session?

The PRIME MINISTER: The selection of the subject for discussion in Committee of Supply rests with the Opposition, and I have no power to say which Estimates shall or shall not be considered.

Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Does the Prime Minister not think that the absence of any Debate on Indian affairs during a whole Session must have a bad effect in India?

The PRIME MINISTER: I should have thought that there was sufficient interest in this House in India to have a discussion on it.

Colonel APPLIN: Will the Prime Minister give the same consideration to his own supporters in a matter of great importance like this that he gives to the Opposition?

The PRIME MINISTER: The hon. and gallant Member is evidently not aware of the custom of this House. The choice of subjects on Supply days always rests with the Opposition, whatever Government be in power.

Mr. SAKLATVALA: Does the Prime Minister remember that there was a glaring omission in regard to India in His Majesty's Speech at the opening of Parliament, and that if that is followed by a complete absence of discussion of a subject affecting a country where people have not ocmplete self-government, it will be misunderstood?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter of argument.

Oral Answers to Questions — COAL TRADE DISPUTE.

SETTLEMENT PROPOSALS.

Mr. R. SMITH: 47.
asked the Prime Minister if the Government hold the view that a settlement of the present mining dispute is still to be had on the Commission's Report if the miners would accept it as interpreted by Sir Herbert Samuel in his memorandum?

The PRIME MINISTER: The settlement of this dispute, as I have reminded this House on previous occasions, must depend primarily and mainly upon agreement being reached between the mine-owners and their employés, and the only answer that I can give to a hypothetical question of this character is that, if the miners submit any possible basis of agreement for meeting the existing conditions of the industry—whether on the lines of the Royal Commission's Report or in any other way—I have no doubt that it would receive the fullest consideration from the mineowners as well as from the Government.

Mr. SMITH: In view of the important statement which the Prime Minister made at the conclusion of his speech last week, will he answer the question in the terms I have suggested, so that we may know definitely what he means?

The PRIME MINISTER: I think the reply gives a perfectly satisfactory answer. The moment any communication is received from those who have authority to speak, it will be considered.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether the mine-owners have as yet expressed their willingness to go back to the Report, and to accept its recommendation?

The PRIME MINISTER: I have had no communications with them for a long time therefore I cannot say.

Mr. WILLIAMS: Will the Prime Minister tell the House why all his questions are directed to the miners accepting or otherwise the recommendations of the Report, when the mine-owners are equally involved?

Mr. SUTTON: May I ask the Prime Minister, seeing that he stated in this House that the coalowners and the miners are unable to settle this matter
and that only the Government can settle it, whether he does not think it is time the Government began to settle the dispute on the lines of the Report of the Royal Commission?

The PRIME MINISTER: The Government did their best to settle, but were not successful in their efforts. I do not think I ever said that the Government alone could settle the dispute. The Government cannot settle in the absence of agreement on both sides.

Mr. SUTTON: Is the Prime Minister not aware that, a few weeks ago, when he made his statement in this House, he admitted that this matter could not be settled by the two sides, and that they as a Government would have to settle it? Will he do so on the lines of the Report of the Royal Commission?

Mr. BATEY: is the Prime Minister aware that the Durham coalowners published their terms yesterday, which mean an increase in the hours of the coal hewers of from one to two hours, and in the hours of the surface workers, two hours, and a reduction of percentage from 110 per cent. to 89 per cent.—

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must put that question on the Paper.

COAL TRIMMERS (REGISTRATION CARDS).

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 57.
asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the fact that coal trimmers unemployed owing to the slackness of trade resulting from the coal stoppage are unable to get a registration card for work on the docks apparently for no other reason than that they are coal trimmers, although they were previously supplied with these cards; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland): My attention had not been called to the circumstances mentioned in the question. If the hon. and gallant Member will indicate the ports he has in mind, I will have further inquiry made. In any case, however, the registration of dock workers is usually under the control of a local joint committee of employers and workpeople's representatives whose decisions are not subject to review by the Minister of Labour.

Mr. WOMERSLEY: Is the Minister of Labour aware that there is a competition between two different unions to secure this work for their members?

MINERS AT WORK.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 63.
asked the Secretary for Mines if he can give figures of the number of coal miners at work now or on the nearest convenient date?

Sir H. BARNSTON: I have been asked to reply. About 400 mines, employing about 11,000 men, are at present at work, practically all of them very small.

Mr. PALING: Are these all safety men?

Sir H. BARNSTON: I cannot say.

HOSKINS AND SONS, LIMITED, BIRMINGHAM (Mr. N. CHAMBER-LAIN'S DIRECTORSHIP).

Mr. JOHNSTON: 48.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Minister of Health is still a director of Hoskins and Sons, Limited, Trinity Street, Birmingham; and, if not, when the Minister of Health resigned his directorship?

The PRIME MINISTER: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, the second part does not therefore arise. I may say that the company in question is a private family concern, and therefore comes within the class which by the general practice of the last twenty years has been excluded from the rule that Ministers should resign directorships on entering office. The practice was first laid down by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman in answer to a question on 20th March, 1906, in the following words:
The condition which was laid down on the formation of the Government was that all directorships held by Ministers must he resigned except in the case of honorary directorships, directorships in connection with philanthropic undertakings, and directorships in private companies.
This was reaffirmed on the 28th March, 1917, by Minute of the War Cabinet, and has been the practice of successive Governments since 1906

Mr. JOHNSTON: May I ask the Prime Minister whether his opinion in this matter has not changed, in view of
the fact that this particular company has enjoyed and is enjoying contractual relationship with the Government?

The PRIME MINISTER: I have no knowledge of the transactions of that particular company, but my right hon. Friend will make a statement at the usual time by permission of Mr. Speaker and the House.

INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE (POLICY HOLDERS' COMPLAINTS).

Mr. LAWSON: 50.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many complaints from policy holders have been received by the Industrial Assurance Commissioner during the last 12 months; how many of these cases are disposed of; and how many still remain to be dealt with?

Mr. McNEILL: I have been asked to reply. 2,632 complaints were received by the Industrial Assurance Commissioner during the 12 months ended 6th July, 1926. Of these, 2,480 have been disposed of or adjourned pending further information, and 152 cases remain to be dealt with.

Oral Answers to Questions — RUSSIA.

EXPORTS AND IMPORTS.

Mr. THURTLE: 51.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the sum total value of Russia's exports and imports for the half-year, October, 1925, to March, 1926; and how these totals compare with those for the half-year, October, 1924, to March, 1925?

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: According to information published by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the value of the imports and exports during the half year ended March, 1926, was: imports, £39,996,000; exports, £32,709,000. During the half-year ended March, 1625, the corresponding figures were: imports, £225,681,1100, and exports, £25,444,000.

GERMAN GUARANTEE.

Mr. WALLHEAD: 52.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the German Reich and State Governments, with the object of consolidating economic relations with Soviet Russia, have undertaken to give a 60 per cent. guarantee on deliveries of German goods to Russia, on
two to four years' credits, up to a total of;300,000,000 marks; and whether His Majesty's Government intend taking any steps to negotiate a similar agreement with the Soviet Government with the object of finding additional employment for the engineering trades of this country?

Mr. A. M. SAMUEL (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): I may refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 5th July to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Purcell).

An HON. MEMBER: Will the right hon. Gentleman take any steps to stop the financing of German trade in Russia?

Mr. SAMUEL: No, Sir that would be quite out of my province.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL AIR FORCE.

AIRMAN'S DEATH (MOTHER'S PENSION CLAIM).

Mr. HORE-BLEISHA): 53.
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether the parents of Leading Aircraftsman R. R. Germain, who lost his life in the air disaster at Hendon in April last, have received a sum of £22 4s.11d. in settlement of the late airman's estate; and whether, since the late airman made an allotment of 10s. 6d. a week to his mother, he will consider awarding her a pension based on the amount that she received weekly from the deceased airman?

The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Samuel Hoare): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, if the reference is to an accident at Henlow. As regards the second part, the deceased airman's mother has been sent a form of application for pension for completion and on its return her claim will be fully and sympathetically considered.

TECHNICAL POSTS (Ex-SERVICE MEN).

Sir WILFRID SUGDEN: 54.
asked the Secretary of State for Air, in view of Clause 45 of the Third Interim Report of the Lytton Committee and its subsequent endorsement by the Southborough Committee and the Government, what action he proposes to take to ensure its fulfilment with respect to the appointment of temporary ex-service men
in the Civil Service to posts of a technical or semi-technical nature, in accordance with Clause 7, Order in Council, 10th January, 1910, or the appropriate machinery that may replace it?

Sir S. HOARE: The machinery to which my hon. Friend refers is indicated by paragraph 45 of the Third Interim Report of the Lytton Committee as appropriate to cases where an individual ex-service man possesses the requisite technical qualifications for a particular appointment. In general, the technical work at the Air Ministry is in large blocks involving the employment of considerable staffs for whose establishment the alternative method of special limited competition provided under paragraph 45 has been invoked, but the procedure referred to in the question has been utilised in 50 cases.

HENDON PAGEANT.

Sir H. BRITTAIN: 55.
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can give the approximate number of those who attended the Air Force display on Saturday last; and what sum of money was raised for the charities concerned?

Sir S. HOARE: I regret that the information requested by my hon. Friend will not be available until the returns of tickets sold have been received from the agents, Royal Air Force units, etc., and

—
Year ending 31st March.


—
1926.*
1924.
1921.
1914.
1913.



£
£
£
£
£


Salaries, travelling expenses, and other administrative expenses
3,520,516
3,186,288
3,552,012
517,069
382,110


Payments to associations and Local Education Authorities for administration of Unemployment Insurance
105,310
68,879
47,568
—
—


Stationery, printing, etc.
967,000
51,543
164,148
28,591
40,332


Premises (rent and capital expenditure)
967,000
348,610
865,774
151,504
220,352


General Post Office}
967,000
290,455
249,177
75,721
90,196


Rates
967,000
59,773
26,014
15,632
10,105


Miscellaneous services rendered by other Government Departments}
967,000
160,256
26,014
15,632
10,105


†Superannuation (accruing liability)
246,316
—
—
—
—


Total cost of Employment Exchange Service.
4,839,142
4,165,804
4,904,693
788,517
743,095


*Estimated.


† A charge under this head was made for the first time during the year ended 31st March, 1925, in pursuance of Section 6 of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1924. The previous practice was to charge the proper proportion of superannuation allowance actually paid.

the accounts have been made up. It seems certain, however, that the attendance was a record one.

Sir H. BRITTAIN: If I put the question down in a week's time, will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give me the information?

Sir S. HOARE: I will try to get the information by then.

EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES.

Major GLYN: 58.
asked the Minister of Labour the cost of the Employment Exchanges for the year ending the 31st March last in respect of salaries, travelling expenses, stationery, and rents and rates of buildings, each separately ; and the corresponding figures for the years 1923, 1920, 1913, and 1912, respectively?

Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Details of expenditure precisely on the lines asked for by my hon. and gallant Friend are not available. With his permission, however, I will circulate a Table showing the cost of the Employment Exchanges, branch employment offices, divisional offices, the headquarters of the employment and insurance department and the Claims and Record Office, Kew, taken together.

Following is the table promised:

The figures given include the appropriate proportion of the cost of other Departments of the Ministry of Labour and of other Government Departments rendering services to the Employment Exchanges. In comparing the recent cost with the pre-War cost, it is necessary to bear in mind that the number of persons insured for unemployment insurance is now 11,500,000 as compared with 2,350,000 in 1913–14, the rate of unemployment has been well over 10 per cent. against about two per cent. in 1913, and the amount of unemployment benefit disbursed has been over 40 millions sterling per annum as compared with £493,022 in 1913–14.

Oral Answers to Questions —  TRANSPORT.

FOOTPATHS ON NEW ROADS.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: 59.
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that his refusal to make grants towards the construction of new roads and towards road improvement schemes unless footpaths are provided forces county councils to provide these paths in places where they consider them to be unnecessary; and whether, in the interests of economy, he will in future leave it to the local authorities to decide as to the necessity of these paths?

The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): Having regard to the ever increasing volume of vehicular traffic on roads, in making grants to improvement schemes I require that due consideration should be given to the safety and convenience of pedestrians. The necessity for footpaths must vary widely in different localities, and I attach full importance to the views expressed thereon by the highway authorities.

Lieut. - Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is not a fact that the Ministry has refused grants to the Devon County Council for new construction and their trunk road schemes unless these paths are made in places where they are not wanted and will never be used, thereby adding 10 per cent. to the cost of construction, and does he not think that county councillors who know their districts are better judges than officials in London?

Colonel ASHLEY: The only objection taken is in connection with one short section of road. My policy is that, except in quite rural areas in the country, or where there is grass, where large reconstructions are taking place, footpaths should be provided.

Mr. MARCH: Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration putting decent footpaths on new roads, such as the new Romford Road?

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must put that question down.

ROAD FUND (FINES).

Sir H. BRITTAIN: 60.
asked the Minister of Transport what was the total amount paid into the Road Fund as the result of fines levied on motorists during the past year; and how many driving licences were suspended?

Colonel ASHLEY: The total amount of fines levied on motorists and paid into the Road Fund during the financial year 1925–26 was, approximately, £165,000. There are no figures available as to the number of driving licences suspended.

Sir H. BRITTAIN: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication of the number of police engaged in this work and the time for which they are engaged?

Colonel ASHLEY: That question should be addressed to the Home Secretary.

Colonel DAY: Is that the complete sum of money paid in fines by motorists during the last 12 months.

Colonel ASHLEY: Yes, certainly.

GENERAL MEDICAL COUNCIL (LAY MEMBER).

Mr. ERSKINE: 61.
asked the Vice-Chamberlain of the Household, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what was the object in appointing a lay member on the General Medical Council?

Major HENNESSY (Vice-Chamberlain of the Household): It would be contrary to practice to disclose the grounds upon which the Privy Council advised His Majesty to make the recent appoint-
ment. No doubt my hon. Friend is acquainted with the public discussion which has taken place in connexion with the constitution of the General Medical Council.

Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLE: May I ask whether the appointment of a lay member signifies any change in the policy which the General Medical Council adopted towards Dr. Axham?

Colonel HENNESSY: I should like to have notice of that question.

Mr. ERSKINE: Arising out of that question, may I ask if the hon. and gallant Gentleman is aware—

Colonel DAY: Do not read it.

Mr. ERSKINE: I am not reading it. May I ask if the hon. and gallant Member is aware that Dr. Collis, a registered medical practitioner, is now acting in the same capacity as Dr. Axham acted in times gone past to Sir Thomas Barker?

Mr. SPEAKER: That question seems to involve an individual, and may carry an implication which is not plain to me at the moment. For that reason, I should like to see the question in writing.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: May I ask the hon. and gallant Member if it is not the case that the purpose of appointing a lay member to the General Medical Council is to abate the autocracy of the medical profession and dilute the fanatical trade unionism with which they are possessed?

Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask the hon. and learned Member to try to shed some of the adjectives in his supplementary questions.

IRISH FREE STATE (EX-BRITISH CIVIL SERVANTS).

Sir W. SUGDEN: 62.
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what steps it is proposed to take with regard to those British ex-service men who were transferred without their permission from the British Civil Service to the Irish Free State, Civil Service and who have been ranked as civilians, placed first on the list of retrenchment, and are not permitted recompense for loss of position as in the case of the British Civil Service?

The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. Amery): I would refer my hon. Friend to Article 10 of the Articles of Agreement, Article 7 of the Provisional Government (Transfer of Functions) Order, 1922, and Articles 77 and 78 of the Irish Free State Constitution, which secure to all civil servants transferred to the service of the Irish Free State all rights which they may have possessed prior to such transfer.

Sir W. SUGDEN: I have some little knowledge of the articles of the Treaty in question, and may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Free State are observing their obligations in regard to English civil servants, and will he use his authority to see that they get common justice?

Mr. AMERY: I have no reason to assume that the Free State are not observing the terms of the Treaty.

Sir W. SUGDEN: If I can give the right hon. Gentleman numerous instances, will he promise to investigate them and see that justice is done to these men?

Mr. AMERY: I shall be glad to consider any case which the hon. Member sends to me.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL NAVY.

SHIPWRIGHT APPRENTICES (PAY).

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: 65.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the discrepancy between a recent Admiralty Order reducing the pay of naval boy shipwrights at present serving in His Majesty's dockyard, Chatham, on their entry into His Majesty's Navy and the statement made in the House on 18th November, 1925, to the effect that naval shipwright apprentices who were already serving on 4th October would, on their joining the Royal Navy, remain on the old scale of pay; and whether, seeing that before these reductions were announced these shipwright apprentices had already signed attestation forms, were over the age of 18, and were borne on the books of H.M.S. "Pembroke" as naval ratings and serving time for pension, he will make it clear how they are affected by these orders?

The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Bridgeman): I am not aware of any
Admiralty Order conflicting with the statement made in the House on the 18th November, 1925, and that statement still represents the intention of the Admiralty.

OBSOLETE SHIPS (BREAKING-UP).

Sir W. SUGDEN: 66.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if, in view of the need of employment of shipyard workers and also economy of the Unemployment Insurance Fund, he will partition out the obsolete ships, etc., which are to be broken up to the various shipbuilding ports round the coast, or if disposed of to one or two firms that such disposal shall carry a condition that their breaking-up shall be partitioned out as suggested, thus to provide employment in the various centres instead of, as now, in one or two localities alone?

Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The obsolete ships referred to will be sold with due regard to the prices quoted and to the state of unemployment in the various shipbreaking areas. With regard to the last part of the question shipbreaking of obsolete naval vessels is being carried on at numerous ports and is not confined to one or two localities.

Mr. SPEAKER: Major Glyn.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: May I put— [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]

Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman desire to put a supplementary question?

Mr. MACQUISTEN: Yes, a supplementary to question 66. I desire to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if it would not be more economical and more in the national interest, with these old, obsolete ships if, when the non-ferrous metals are removed, they were filled with concrete, sunk, and used for harbours around our coasts for the fishermen, who urgently need them—as breakwaters?

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and learned Gentleman seems more concerned about making suggestions than seeking for information.

EFFECTIVE LIST (REMOVALS).

Major GLYN: 67.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what ships it is proposed to remove from the effective list during the current financial year; and whether there will be any changes in the
ships belonging to or attached to the naval forces of the Dominions, and, if so, what?

Mr. BRIDGEMAN: As the reply is somewhat long and contains a number of names, I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The reply is as follows:
The following 20 ships will be removed from the effective list of the Royal Navy during this financial year:—

"Ajax."
"Sikh."


"Thunderer."
"Tarpon."


"King George V."
"Sable."


"Agamemnon."
"Raider."


S/M "L.9."
"Retriever."


"Radstock."
"Redgauntlet."


"Satyr."
"Telemachus."


"Sorceress."
"Sharpshooter."


"Sabrina."
"Stork"


"Truculent."
"Rapid."

As regards ships belonging to or attached to the naval forces of the Dominions, the only changes which can be foreseen at the moment are the sale of His Majesty's Canadian Ship "Aurora" and the two Canadian Submarines "C.H.14" and "C.H.15," which is contemplated by the Canadian Government. The two new submarines for the Australian Navy may possibly be finished in time to be commissioned during this year, but it is impossible to give a definite reply on this point at the moment.

MUSIC-HALL POSTER, BIRMINGHAM.

Mr. DENNISON: 12.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the action of the Birmingham police authority in removing a poster advertising a certain music-hall artist; and on what grounds did the Home Office, on being consulted, approve of this action being taken?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The artist in question improperly, but without wrongful intention, displayed a portion of a Treasury Note on an advertisement. The Birmingham police very properly called his attention to it; the advertisement was withdrawn and the artist admitted that the police were right and that he was wrong.

STREET ACCIDENTS (TRAMWAY AND HORSE TRAFFIC).

Sir H. BRITTAIN: 16.
asked the Home Secretary how many accidents were caused last year by tramway and horse traffic, respectively; and what was the number of individuals killed and injured in such accidents?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: According to the police returns of street accidents in England and Wales, 105 fatal and 5,154 non-fatal accidents were attributable to tramcars in 1925, and the corresponding figures for horse-drawn vehicles were 191 and 5,079, respectively. The returns do not give the number of persons killed and injured, respectively.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON: May I ask the Prime Minister what business he proposes to take next week?

The PRIME MINISTER: On Monday we propose to take the Finance Bill— completion of the Report stage.
Tuesday: Supply, Ministry of Health Vote.
Wednesday: Supply, Post Office Vote, until 8.15; Ministry of Transport Vote, until 11 p.m.
Thursday: Supply, the Vote will be announced later.
Friday: the Business will be announced later.

If time permit, on any day next week, progress will be made with small Bills on the Paper.

The following Notice of Motion stood on the Order Paper in the name of the PRIME MINISTER:
That other Government Business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply, and that the Proceedings on the Boards of Guardians (Default) Bill and on the Report of Supply [7th July] be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).

Mr. THURTLE: Before this Motion is put, Mr. Speaker, I would submit to you that it contains three separate Questions, and I wish to know whether the House has a right to divide upon all these three Questions?

Mr. SPEAKER: The Motion contains only two Questions, namely, that Government business should to-day have precedence of Supply, and the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule. If it is desired, I could put these two Questions separately.

Mr. THURTLE: I take objection to the Motion being put as one Question.

Mr. SPEAKER: I will put the Questions separately.
Motion made, and Question put,
That other Government Business have precedence this day of the business of Supply."—[The Prime Minister.]

The House divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 130.

Division No. 339.]
AYES
[4.3 p. m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Braithwaite, A N.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Brass, Captain W.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon, William Clive
Clayton, G. C.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Briggs, J. Harold
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A, D.


Applln, Colonel R. V. K.
Briscoe, Richard George
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Brittain, Sir Harry
Cohen, Major J. Brunel


Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips


Astor, Viscountess
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Cooper, A. Duff


Atholl, Duchess of
Brown, Col D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Cope, Major William


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Brown, Brig, Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newby)
Couper, J. B.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Buckingham, Sir H.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)


Balnlel, Lord
Bullock, Captain M.
Crack, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry


Barclay-Harvey, C. M,
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)


Beamish, Captain T. P. H.
Burton, Colonel H. W.
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Curzon, Captain Viscount


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Dalziel, Sir Davison


Berry, Sir George
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)
Davies, Dr. Vernon


Bethel, A.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset. Yeovil)


Betterton. Henry B.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Dawson, Sir Philip


Blundell, F. N.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley


Boothby, R. J. G.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Drewe, C.


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Chapman, Sir S
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Ellis, R. G.


Elveden, Viscount
Jephcott, A. R.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.


England, Colonel A.
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.)
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).
Rye, F. G.


Erskine, lames Malcolm Montelth
Kidd. J. (Linlithgow)
Salmon, Major I.


Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Everard, W. Lindsay
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Knox, Sir Alfred
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Falls, Sir Bertram G.
Lamb, J. Q.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Falls, Sir Charles F.
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)


Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)


Fielden, E. B.
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Finburgh, S.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Shepperson, E. W.


Forrest, W.
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Loder, J. de V.
Skelton, A. N.


Fraser, Captain Ian
Lougher, L.
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Smith, R. W. (Aherd'n & Kincidlne, C.)


Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Lumley, L. R.
Smithi-Carington, Neville W.


Ganzonl, Sir John
Lynn, Sir R. J.
Smithers, Waldron


Gates, Percy
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Macintyre, Ian
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Gower, Sir Robert
Macmillan, Captain H.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Greene, W. P. Crawford
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Macquisten, F. A.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Grotrian, H. Brent
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel.
Templeton, W. P.


Gunston, Captain D. W.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Malone, Major P. B.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)
Margesson, Captain D.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)


Hanbury, C.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell.


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Tinne, J. A.


Harrison, G. J. C.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Hartington, Marquess of
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Tryon, sir Edmund Russborough


Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Monsell, Eyres, Corn. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Waddington, R.


Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Wallace, Captain D. E.


Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)


Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.


Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Warrender, sir Victor


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Murchison, C. K.
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)


Herbert, S.(York, N. R. Scar. & Wh'by)
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Watts, Dr. T.


Hills, Major John Waiter
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Wells, S. R


Hoare, Lt.-Cot. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.


Hogg, Rt, Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Nuttall, Ellis
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple


Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Holt. Capt. H. P.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Hopkins, J. W. W.
Pennefather, Sir John
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


Howard, Captain Hon, Donald
Penny, Frederick George
Wilson, M..J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)


Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'I'nd, Whlteh'n)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Wilson, n. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Hume, Sir G. H.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Perring, Sir William George
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Wise, Sir Fredric


Hurd, Percy A.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Womersley, W. J.


Hurst, Gerald B.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, W.)


Hutchison, G. A. Clark(Mldl'n & P'bl's)
Radford, E. A.
Wood, sir. S. Hill (High peak)


Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Raine, W.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Ramsden, E.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Remnant, Sir James



Jacob, A. E.
Rentoul, G. s.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Rice, Sir Frederick
Major Major Harry Barnston and




Colonel Gibbs


NOES


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Compton, Joseph
Grundy, T. W.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)


Ammon, Charles George
Dalton, Hugh
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)


Attlee, Clement Richard
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)


Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)
Day, Colonel Harry
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Dennison, R.
Hardie, George D.


Barr, J.
Dunnico, H.
Harney, E. A.


Batey, Joseph
Edwards, C, (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Harris, Percy A.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon


Brlant, Frank
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.
Hayday, Arthur


Broad, F. A.
Gardner, J. P.
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)


Bromfield, William
Gibbins, Joseph
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)


Bromley, J.
Gillett, George M.
Hirst, G. H.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Graham, D M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)


Buchanan, G.
Greenall, T.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)


Cape, Thomas
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)


Charleton, H. C.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)


Collins, dir Godfrey (Greenock)
Groves, T.
John, William (Rhondda, West)




Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Taylor, R. A.


Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Potts, John S.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Purcell, A. A.
Thurtle, E.


Kelly, W. T.
Richardson, R. (Houghton le-Spring)
Tinker, John Joseph


Kennedy, T.
Riley, Ben
Townend, A. E.


Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Ritson, J.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.


Kenyon, Barnet
Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Varley, Frank B.


Kirkwocd, D.
Sakiatvala, Shaperji
Vlant, S. P.


Lansbury, George
Scurr, John
Wallhead, Richard C.


Lawrence, Susan
Sexton, James
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Lawson, John James
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Lee, F.
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col, D. (Rhondda)


Lindley, F. W.
Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney


Lowth, T.
Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Welsh, J. C.


Lunn, William
Sitch, Charles H.
Westwood, J.


MacLaren, Andrew
Smillie, Robert
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.


March, S.
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Wiggins, William Martin


Montague, Frederick
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Morris, R. H
Snell, Harry
William., T. (York, Don Valley)


Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Murnin, H.
Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Windsor, Walter


Oliver, George Harold
Stamford, T. W.
Wright, W.


Palin, John Henry
Stephen, Campbell
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Paling, W.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)



Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Sutton, J. E.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—




Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Hayes.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the proceedings on the Boards of Guardians (Default) Bill and on the Report of Supply [7th July] be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the

Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]

The House divided: Ayes, 255; Noes, 130.

Division No. 340.]
AYES.
[4.12 p.m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Greene, W. P. Crawford


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John


Allen, J. Sancleman (L'pool,W.Derby)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
Grotrian, H. Brent


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Clayton, G. C.
Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)


Applln, Colonel R. V. K.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A, D.
Gunston, Captain D. W.


Ashley, Lt-Col. Rt. Hon, Wilfrid W
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Astor, Viscountess
Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)


Atholl, Duchess of
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Conway, sir W. Martin
Harland, a.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cooper, A. Duff
Henry Harrison, G. J. C.


Bainlel, Lord
Cope, Major William
Hartington, Marquess of


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Couper, J. B.
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)


Beamish, Captain T. P. H.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Crack, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Crookehank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P.


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish.
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Bethel, A.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.


Betterton, Henry B.
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Herbert, S.(York, N. R. Scar. & Wh'by)


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Dalzlel, Sir Davison
Hills, Major John Waiter


Blundell, F. N.
Davies, Dr. Vernon
Hoare, Lt.-Cot. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.


Boothby, R. J. G.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset. Yeovil)
Hogg, Rt, Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Dawson, Sir Philip
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Holt. Capt. H. P.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Drewe, C.
Hopkins, J. W. W.


Braithwaite, A. N.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Howard, Captain Hon, Donald


Brass, Captain W.
Ellis, R. G.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Elveden, Viscount
Hume, Sir G. H.


Briggs, J. Harold
England, Colonel A.
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis


Briscoe, Richard George
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.)
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer


Brittain, Sir Harry
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Hurd, Percy A.


Brocklebank, C. E. R
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Hurst, Gerald B.


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Everard, W. Lindsay
Hutchison, G. A. Clark(Mld'n & P'bl's)


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexnam)
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. Berks, Newb'y)
Falls, Sir Bertram G.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Falls, Sir Charles F.
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.


Bullock, Captain M.
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)


Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Flelden, E. B.
Jacob, A. E.


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Flnburgh, S.
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Forrest, W.
Jephcott, A. R.


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)
Fraser, Captain Ian
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).


Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Kidd. J. (Linlithgow)


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
King, Captain Henry Douglas


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Gates, Percy
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement


Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A.(Birm.,W.)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col Rt. Hon. Sir John
Knox, Sir Alfred


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Lamb, J. Q.


Chapman, sir S.
Gower, Sir Robert
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.


Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Leigh, sir John (clapham)


Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Pennefather, Sir John
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Penny, Frederick George
Stuart, Crichton., Lord C.


Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Loder, J. de V.
Perring, Sir William George
Templeton, W. P.


Looker, Herbert William
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Thom, Lt-Col, J. G. (Dumbarton)


Lougher, L.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Lucas Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Lumley, L. R
Radford, E. A.
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell


Lynn, Sir R. J.
Reine, W.
Tinne, J. A.


MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Ramsden, E.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (J. of W.)
Rawson, sir copper
Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough


Macintyre, Ian
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Vaughan-Morgan, col. K. P.


Macmillan Captain H.
Remnant, Sir James
Wallace, Captain D. E,


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Rice, Sir Frederick
Ward, LL-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)


McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Ropner, Major L
Warner. Brigadier-General W. W.


Macquisten, F. A.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Warrender, Sir Victor


MacRobert, Alexander M.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel
Rye, F. G.
Watts, Dr. T.


Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Salmon, Major I.
Wells, S. R.


Malone, Major P. B.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.


Margesson, Captain D.
Sandeman, A. Stewart
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple


Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Moose, Eyree, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Shepperson, E. W.
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl


Moore-Brabazon Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Wise, Sir Fredric


Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Skelton, A. N.
Womersley, W. J.


Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, West)


Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)
Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)
Smithers, Waldron
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Nuttall, Ellis
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.



Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Will'sden, E.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES —


Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Major Sir Harry Barnston and




Colonel Gibbs


NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Ponsonby, Arthur


Ammon, Charles George
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Potts, John S.


Attlee, Clement Richard
Hardie, George D.
Purcell, A. A.


Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)
Harney, E. A.
Richardson, R. (Houghton le-Spring)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Harris, Percy A.
Riley, Ben


Barr, J.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Ritson, J.


Baley, Joseph
Hayday, Arthur
Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Scurr, John


Briant, Frank
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Sexton, James


Broad, F. A.
Hirst, G. H.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Bromfield, William
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis


Bromley, J.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Shiels, Dr. Drummond


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Calthness)


Buchanan, G.
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Sitch, Charles H.


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Smillie, Robert


Cape, Thomas
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)


Charleton, H. C.
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)


Cluse, W. S.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Snell, Harry


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Compton, Joseph
Kelly, W. T.
Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Kennedy, T.
Stamford, T. W.


Dalton, Hugh
Kenworthy, Lt..Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Stephen, Campbell


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Kenyon, Barnet
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Day, Colonel Harry
Kirkwood, D.
Sutton, J. E.


Dennison, R.
Lansbury, George
Taylor, R. A.


Dunnico, H.
Lawrence, Susan
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Lawson, John James
Thurtle, E.


Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Lee, F.
Tinker, John Joseph


Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.
Lindley, F. W.
Townend, A. E.


Gardner, J. P.
Loath, T.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.


Glbbins, Joseph
Lunn, William
Varley, Frank B.


Gillett, George M.
MacLaren, Andrew
Viant, S. P.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
March, S.
Wallhead, Richard C.


Greenall, T.
Montague, Frederick
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Colne)
Morris, R. H
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, North)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col, D. (Rhondda)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Murnin, H.
Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney


Groves, T.
Oliver, George Harold
Welsh, J. C.


Grundy, T. W.
Palin, John Henry
Westwood, J.


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Paling, W.
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.




Wiggins, William Martin
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Windsor, Waiter



Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wright, W.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—




Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Hayes.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION.

Mr. NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN: Mr. Speaker, I desire, with your permission, to make a short personal statement in connection with a question asked to-day by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston). I had not intended to make any such statement, seeing that up to the present, so far as I know, no charge has been made against me, either in this House or outside. But I observe this morning that a statement has been widely circulated in the Press that I was to make a statement of this kind, and, if I failed to make a statement, it seems to me that I should be placed in an intolerable position, since it might be thought that I desired to evade something, or to keep something back. I understand that for some weeks there have been experts employed, I do not know by whom, or at whose expense, to search the records of Somerset House, and the files of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette," in order to see whether anything could be found that could be used to discredit His Majesty's Ministers. [Interruption.] It is difficult, in the absence of any express charges, to know what I am to reply to, but I will assume three possible charges which may be made. I would like to make a short statement upon each. First of all, there is the charge, implied I think in the question of the hon. Member—who seems to be rather a specialist in this kind of thing. [Interruption.]

Mr. SPEAKER: I must point out to the House that a statement made at the end of Questions must be confined to non-controversial points. I have already refused, from another quarter of the House, a matter which I thought did not comply with that condition. It is because it would lead either to debate, or to something which could not be completed without debate, that that Rule is in force.

Commander O. LOCKER-LAMPSON: How, Mr. Speaker, can it possibly be a non-controversial statement when it is challenging a. Minister's honour?

Mr. THURTLE: Further on that point of Order. If the right hon. Gentleman is not aware of the nature of the charges
that are to be formulated against him, had he not better wait until such charges are formulated before making a statement?

Commander LOCKER-LAMPSON: It is controversial, then, according to that statement.

Mr. SPEAKER: The House has always, as a matter of courtesy, listened to a statement of this kind from whatever quarter it comes. We had one only a few days ago from the hon. Member for North Battersea (Mr. Saklatvala). The House always affords that courtesy. The Rule is that these statements must be personal statements, and must not raise matters which will necessitate debate. A Debate, if there are personal charges, can only take place on a substantive Motion properly tabled.

Mr. ERSKINE: What was actually said by the Minister which conflicted with your ruling, Sir?

Mr. SPEAKER: I thought it would be best at the beginning, anticipating what might possibly develop in the House, to lay down the rule which has held for many years—for many hundreds of years.

Mr. DUFF COOPER: On the point of Order. May I submit that it is quite impossible for Members of His Majesty's Government to wait, for these charges to be formulated, since not one Member of the Opposition has had the courage to formulate any charge? They have confined themselves solely to insinuations which they cannot substantiate and do not dare to—[Interruption.]

Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter with which I am not dealing. All I say is that a Minister, like any other Member of the House, is entitled to make a. personal statement, but that personal statement ought not to involve any attack on any other Member of the House. That is the rule universally applied by the Chair.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: In completing my statement, I will endeavour to avoid anything which is not absolutely necessary for the purpose of personal defence. I assume that the first charge
is that, being a member of the Government, I have retained a directorship I think my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has shown convincingly that in retaining the directorship of this private and family concern, I am acting in strict accordance with what has been the practice of Governments for the lass 25 years. But in a newspaper I find, in the issue of 7th July, the following statement, which seems to imply a further charge:
In the Debate on a Motion calling attention to the fact that relations of Mr. Joseph Chamberlain had large interests in concerns which receive contracts from the Government, on 10th December, 1900, the principle that no Minister ought to hold investments in companies which derive their profits largely from Government contracts was generally agreed to.
That is in direct contradiction of the facts, as anybody will see who refers to the Debate in question in 1900. It is a curious fact that in that Debate, which took place 26 years ago, this identical company was quoted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who was, at that time, seeking to persuade the House to accept an Amendment to the Address. It was quoted by him in a speech in which he dilated upon it with much sarcasm. It was then said in reply to him by Colonel Milward, at that time Member for Stratford-on-Avon, that the firm of Hoskins and Sons was mainly the business of Mr. Neville Chamberlain. The Amendment was defeated by a large majority, and it never has been laid down or agreed in this House that no Minister should hold shares in any company which might from time to time have contracts with Government Departments. It would not be in order for me to enter into the merits of that general position. I merely state that that is the fact.
I think there is a third charge, which is more personal and seems to suggest that I may have used my position as a director of this particular company to obtain contracts from the Government. May I then say, Sir, that for many years I have taken no active part whatever in the administration of this company. I do not know, I do not ask what contracts they have. My connection with it is simply that of a trustee for the family
interests which arc concerned, and I cannot say now whether or not the company holds contracts from any Government Department. What I do know is that at the time when I was actively concerned with the company, dating from its formation in 1897, the business which it did with Government Departments formed only a trifling proportion of its whole turnover, its business being concerned mainly with shipping and shipbuilding companies and, as far as I am aware, there has been no change in that respect since.

Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON: I am aware that it would not be in order to debate the explanation which has just been made to the House by the right hon. Gentleman, but I will say with your permission, Sir, that on the issue which has been raised and on the questions that have been submitted it can only be said, so far as this House is concerned, that if any charges have been made they have been made by way of trying to obtain information in the way that is proper in connection with the carrying on of the business of this House. There seems to be a suspicion that we are afraid on this side to make the charges in the proper way—that is in the way that is considered proper by hon. Members opposite—and in view of that, I ask the Prime Minister whether he will afford us at an early date an opportunity for this matter to be fully discussed.

The PRIME MINISTER: Of course any time the right hon. Gentleman desires to put clown a Motion, we shall be pleased to afford time, or the matter can be raised on another occasion without putting down a Motion.

Mr. HENDERSON: I consider this matter to be of such great public importance that I wish to intimate to the House that we will accept the offer of the Prime Minister and table a Motion for debate.

Mr. W. THORNE: May I ask for information? In the event of a Minister of the Crown making very serious allegations against Members either of boards of guardians or other bodies, and refusing to investigate those charges, is there any remedy inside this House? [Interruption.] Never you mind. You shut your mouth.

HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"

Mr. SPEAKER: I did not hear what the hon. Gentleman said. It was drowned by a disorderly interruption. Hon. Members, I hope, will restrain themselves. It merely distracts attention from things that really matter. In the last few weeks, I am aware that Members have been under a considerable sense of strain, but that very fact ought to lead them to greater restraint. They are dealing with great national issues, and these are only obscured by the behaviour of some Members of the House in the last two or three weeks. I make a strong appeal to Members to remember the duties which are entrusted to them.

Mr. HARDIE: I wish to ask for your ruling on this point, Mr. Speaker. In the present circumstances, when the whole House has agreed to a Debate upon the conduct of the Minister, may I ask your ruling as to whether it is competent for that Minister to continue to represent the Crown until that Debate is over?

Mr. SPEAKER: Certainly it is.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

That they have agreed to,—Coal Mines Bill,

Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Ilfracombe) Bill, without, Amendment.

Port of London Bill, with an Amendment.

Mid-Nottinghamshire Joint Railways Bill,

Rhymney Valley Water Bill,

Bermondsey Borough Council (Street Trading) Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Lord Mayor, Aldermen and Citizens of the City and County of Newcastle-upon-Tyne; to enact provisions for the health, local government and improvement of the said city; and for other purposes."[Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Bill [Lords.]

NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION BILL [Lords].

Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Orders of the Day — BOARDS OF GUARDIANS (DEFAULT) BILL.

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Proceedings on default by board of guardians.)

Mr. SCURR: I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, after the word "Where" to insert the words
after inquiry by a Select Committee of the Commons House of Parliament.
I profoundly disagree with the principle on which this Bill is founded, and think it in every way a bad Bill; and, beyond that, on looking at this Clause 1, find that it proposes to enact that
Where it appears to the Minister of Health…that the board of guardians for any Poor Law union have ceased, or are acting in such a manner as will render them unable, to discharge all or any of the functions exercised by the board, the Minister may by Order—
do certain things. I do not think the Minister will say I am misrepresenting him when I say that this Bill has been put forward with reference to the alleged default on the part of the West Ham Board of Guardians. That is the real reason for introducing this Bill. We heard what the Minister said on Second Reading regarding the alleged defalcations of that board.

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): Not defalcations—default.

Mr. SCURR: The alleged default of that board. I understand there are no allegations against the board in regard to their administration of their hospitals or other institutions or their schools. The only point at issue arises over the administration of out-door relief. I have been credibly informed that on previous occasions the West Ham Board of Guardians have endeavoured to meet the Minister on various points of difference which have arisen. I think I am right in saying that he required them to appoint additional officers to investigate the cases of persons receiving relief, and, as a result, some 60 persons were appointed
for the purpose, at a cost to the union of £240 a week. These investigators go all over the union. They are not under the direction of the superintendent relieving officer, they are a quite separate staff, doing separate work, at the request of the Ministry. In that case the board have endeavoured to meet the Ministry.
The position is that there is a dispute between the Minister and the West Ham Board of Guardians—and it may be some other boards of guardians—in regard to administration. It is a case of there being two parties to a dispute, one party making certain allegations, which may or may not be justified, and the other denying those allegations. Under this Bill one of those two parties, the party making the charges, is given power to supersede the persons against whom the charges are brought. That seems to me to be a very bad principle in every sense of the word, to introduce into our legislation—that if a Minister feels that a certain body over which he has certain powers are not discharging their function properly he may supersede them. We say the charges made by the Minister ought to be investigated by an impartial authority, and that it is absolutely wrong that it should be left to those making the charge to decide whether the charge is true or not and then to take action as a result of their decision.
In the Amendment I am putting forward we propose that a Select Committee of the House of Commons should investigate any charges which the Minister deems it to be his duty to make. No one will say that a Select Committee of this House is not an impartial authority. On the Second Reading the Minister of Health put forward certain views about corruption in administration, views as to excessive out-relief and so on. The charges he made were rebutted from this side of the House. The Minister may say that in his judgment they were not sufficiently rebutted. We, on our side, say we do not think the Minister made out his case. If this Bill passes, the Minister has only to say, "In my judgment this board"—any particular board —"is in default, and therefore I will supersede it with my own nominees." Before we invade the province of local government in that way, before we take away from the electors those people whom they have elected to do certain
work in a certain way and who are faithfully carrying out their election pledges, there ought to be an impartial investigation to ascertain whether those persons are discharging the functions they have undertaken in accordance with the law, or whether it is only his political prejudice against them that is causing the Minister to act.
All we can see in the action of the Minister is political prejudice directed against a particular board which, if it had been in some other area, would not have been in such financial difficulties as it is. Moreover, the financial difficulties arise because, in our judgment, the Government of the day have not assumed their rightful responsibility in respect of those people who are out of work. If the Government of the day had a really national system of administering unemployment benefit, and made that unemployment benefit adequate for persons out of work, the West Ham Board of Guardians would not be in their present position, and other boards of guardians, in similarly-situated areas, would also not be in difficulties. Therefore, we had the Minister saying, in effect: "Because there is a board of guardians attempting to do its duty, a duty which has been thrown upon it, because of the default of the Ministry, the Ministry shall have the power to say that that board is in default and is to be relieved of its functions." It is unjust in every sense of the word, and I, therefore, put forward the suggestion that, if we are to have such legislation, and if some board is to be superseded, there should be a real judicial inquiry by a Select Committee of the House of Commons. Such a Committee would give the opportunity for the Minister and his officials to state their case against the board, and then for the board to rebut that case with evidence, and then the Committee, sitting, as a Select Committee always does, as a judicial and impartial authority, moved not by the animus of political bias, but by the evidence laid before it, would be able to say whether or not the case against the Board was made out. Before the Minister is allowed to be both accuser and judge, as he is under this Clause, I think the question ought to be referred to an impartial authority.

Mr. JOHN BAKER: I beg to second the Amendment.
I do so, for reasons other than those given by the Mover, and as I am going to say some things that might be considered offensive to the Minister if they were taken as having personal application, I wish to assure him that that is not my intention, because I have used similar words about another Ministerial office, occupied by another Gentleman, on another matter. I object to this Bill, and I do not believe that any single individual should have the power for which the Minister is asking here. If, as he stated, when introducing the Bill, there is such rottenness and corruptness among a whole group of people as he alleges to exist on two particular boards of guardians, what would it be if we gave the administration to one individual, without proper check or supervision? It is he alone who is to say: "I do not agree." I do not think any person should have that power, and I hope the Minister will accept the Amendment, because it tends to prevent that of which he himself complains. He has had supervision over these boards of guardians and has failed to keep them in order, and I submit that it would be wiser if he had a body such as is suggested in the Amendment, to whom to report these guardians, than if he acted on his own initiative, and said to them: "Get out; I am putting in somebody who will do as I tell them." That is what it amounts to, and that kind of statement is going to way with every Minister and with every change of Ministry.
The right hon. Gentleman said some very rude things about me and my colleagues when he introduced the Bill, because I have been advocating now for over a quarter of a century that the standard of relief should be raised. It has now got to a point where he says that this has not only got to stop, but that the standard of relief has got to be lowered. He and I differ. Let us change places to-morrow, and I shall be sacking the boards of guardians who do not live up to my standard just as he will want to sack those who live beyond his standard. Where shall we get to? That will establish such a state of chaos in the administration of the Poor Law that it could not be carried on in a reasonable manner. The right hon. Gentleman says that I am corrupt and
that all those who say they want work or maintenance are corrupt. We go out to the street corners at election time, and say: "If you people want proper treatment before a board of guardians, elect men and women from your own class who know your troubles and your needs and who have sympathy with you, and then you will have a better chance of getting reasonable treatment." The Minister, because he does not agree with that viewpoint, calls it corruption. I am recalcitrant and unashamed, and I am going on, and I hope to see the day when there will be nobody in this country holding the view that the right hon. Gentleman holds as to what is a sufficient amount of relief to give to a fellow citizen and a fellow Christian.
With regard to the charge of extravagance made by the Minister against two boards in particular, I am old enough to remember the time when it was thought sufficient, by boards of guardians composed of middle-class ladies and gentlemen in this country, to give 2s. 6d. a week in relief. No person at that time could get 21 meals for 30 pennies, or a week's shelter for 30 pennies, unless he was fortunate enough to have friends or relatives who would give him accommodation. How those people existed, I do not know. It has been a continuous fight ever since to try to get this Christian community to recognise its duty to its fellows, and not only has it failed up to now, but we now have a Minister who wants to go back. Does he want to go back to that 2s. 6d? He will say "No"; but if you get further Ministers of his type, they will want to go back to the 2s. 6d. If I may use an illustration which occurred in this House not many days ago on another matter, to emphasise my point, I would refer to the hon. Member who quoted some paper from the Front Bench about the wages of miners in 1828. Is that the point to which we are going back in Poor Law relief, the point where the man who did not get enough wage, based upon so many loaves of bread a week, had a right to apply to the guardians and get an extra loaf? I am not willing to go back to that kind of thing, and the Minister can call me corrupt and use all the offensive terms he can imagine. He can, if he likes, sit up all night and make a whole pile of terms, and when he
has done, I will laugh at him. I want to go forward, but this Bill is not going forward, but backward. It is giving power to individuals that those individuals ought not to have, whether they have a name the same as that of the right hon. Gentleman who holds office now, or a name the same as mine.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The two hon. Members who have supported this Amendment have addressed themselves rather to the general principles of the Bill than to the particular point to which the Amendment is directed, because it is not relevant, I submit, that on this Amendment we should discuss whether or not the administration of the Board of Guardians in West Ham is corrupt. The point here is whether it is desirable or necessary that no Order should be made under the Bill except after inquiry by a Select Committee of this House. I cannot accept the account given by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr) of what the Bill enables us to do. It does not enable a Minister to say to any board of guardians: "I do not approve of the way you are acting." He has to be convinced that they have either ceased to perform their functions or are acting in such a way as to render them unable to function. In respect to the West Ham Board of Guardians, we were faced with an emergency. At the present time they are only giving 75 per cent. of the relief which was being given a little while ago, because they have not very much money, but there will come a time, unless some other events take place, when there will be no money, and that is exactly the contingency that I desire to avoid
What would be the effect of passing this Amendment? It. would mean that no relief would be given in West Ham after the funds of the present board were exhausted until the Select Committee had investigated the circumstances and made a Report. If I may say so, I think both hon. Members have lost sight of one rather important point in connection with this case. Some time ago there was a difference of opinion between the Minister of Health and the Poplar Board of Guardians. In that case, the Poplar board issued a pamphlet in which they pleaded guilty and were proud of it, but in this case the guardians admit that they are guilty, but say they are ashamed of it.

Mr. J. JONES: We will listen to that later on.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, the hon. Member will listen to it now. I quoted words, on the Second Reading of the Bill, used by the vice-chairman of the West Ham Board of Guardians to that effect.

Mr. JONES: On a point of Order. Was not that a personal expression of opinion during a debate in the board room and not an admission by the board generally of anything wrong?

The CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of order.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Here are the words of the vice-chairman which I quoted. For the moment, I cannot lay my hand upon them, but he said in effect that things had been done in regard to which the least they could do was to be ashamed of them.

Mr. GROVES: The words in question are in column 1652 of your own speech in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not need to repeat the words. They were not challenged. That was the opinion, not of an individual, but of the vice-chairman of the board. The chairman of the board himself said he had before him a number of cases of relief in which there had been allowances for which there was no justification whatever. In this case the charges are admitted by the board. The inquiry has already been held by the auditor, and the result of the auditor's report has been published.

Mr. J. JONES: This is a new interpretation of local government law.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The auditor's report has been made, and the members of the board have not challenged it.

Mr. JONES: On a point of Order. In a previous case in West Ham, when a number of Liberal and Tory Members were sent to prison, there was a public inquiry held. Why not on this occasion?

The CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of order.

Mr. JONES: No, but it is a fact.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: In these circumstances, it is absurd to suggest that there should be a further inquiry.

Mr. ARTHUR GREENWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman's explanation is no defence and it is no explanation. He began by giving his view of the Amendment in relation to the first words of the Clause. He said the principle was that, if the Minister of Health was of opinion that a board of guardians had ceased to carry out its duties, he might take steps to suppress it.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The words are
that the board of guardians for any Poor Law union have ceased, or have acted in such a manner as will render them unable
to discharge their functions.

Mr. GREENWOOD: That is still more a matter of conjecture. If the Minister thinks the Board is likely to be unable to carry on its work, he proposes to take the serious and drastic line of suppressing that local authority for the time being. He says that, if we accept this Amendment, West Ham is going to starve. But, surely, it is possible to have a limited inquiry and for the Ministry of Health to empower the board of guardians to borrow a limited sum for a short time, while the matter is being investigated. The right hon. Gentleman says there is no need for an inquiry because the chairman and the vice-chairman have admitted that they are guilty. But that is not the point. The point is, be they guilty or not, whether the right hon. Gentleman ought to take the serious step of destroying the boards of guardians for the time being. Our position is that such a decision ought not to rest with the Minister. The point is whether the guilt of the chairman and vice-chairman is of such a kind as to warrant the right hon. Gentleman putting this Bill into operation and destroying an organ of local government. It seems to us to be a very reasonable request to make that this power of suppressing a board of guardians should not be exercised until this House has had an opportunity of examining the whole situation. We do not think this House ought to take away the rights of local government, but, if the Minister will persist in this Bill, surely we are asking nothing unreasonable in suggesting that before such a step is taken the matter should be referred to a Committee of this House, and that, on the findings of that Committee, the right hon. Gentleman should take action or no action, as the case may be.

Mr. GROVES: I want to support this Amendment in a quite dispassionate manner. I submit that the points and the details which the right hon. Gentleman has submitted in support of the drastic supersession of the boards of guardians have been given him by his political supporters in the West Ham Borough. I submit that the controversy in West Ham has been carried on very largely by information, which is sometimes published and sometimes is not, by the leader of a political party which is opposed to the majority of the guardians, and whose name is Mr. Ward. If the right hon. Gentleman in this House is going to pay special attention to what political partisans offer in evidence, in particular cases, of persons who are relieved in West Ham Union, I do not think it is a great thing for a Minister to do. The Minister has emphasised that the board of guardians has ceased to perform its functions, and I respectfully submit that that is not so.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: What I said was that the guardians have been acting in such a manner as to make it impossible for them to continue.

Mr. GROVES: The Minister is already commencing his work in West Ham. To-day at relieving stations there were strangers, official persons, obviously part of the machinery of supersession, and I submit that it is wrong that any such steps should have been taken before this Bill became an Act of Parliament. The Minister referred to certain cases of abuse of relief, and he said there are 100 cases. I think we have about 27,000 families to relieve in the union. Is it reasonable to take this action because you get 100 cases of abuse out of that number?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health made it clear on the Second Reading that the 100 cases were not all the cases that could be found. They were the result of a test examination taken by the auditor.

Mr. GROVES: If a man has stolen one article surely it is not fair to assume that he has stolen six. If you have some cases out of 100, surely it is not fair to assume that all the others are the same, and it is not fair to assume that, because 100 people have done certain
things, all the others of the 27,000 have done the same. I submit that the circumstances in West Ham do not warrant the Minister's direct action. The hon. Member for Upton (Captain Holt) perpetrated the usual fallacy of arguing from particular cases to general principles. He said that somebody got a relief ticket for 16s., and had the audacity to purchase for the money a tin of peaches and Devonshire cream. What if they did? Assuming that that took place. I protest against arguing as if that kind of thing were general. We do not say that all the people in our borough are perfect. You would not get all the people perfect in Woolwich. The whole of this argument is based on two propositions: first, the alleged abuse of relief, and, secondly, the bankruptcy of the unions.
I know that we cannot argue the general question of Poor Law relief, but I submit that you should have had an impartial inquiry by a Select Committee. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the auditor's Report. I think it is true that during the very critical period when unemployment has been mounting up, when the people have been driven on to the Poor Law, auditors have come to West Ham, and examined accounts and made reports. But only recently has the administration of the Union been regarded by the Minister as inimical to the general good. I am amazed that today the Minister should hint that people in receipt of poor relief should not have the right to vote for Poor Law guardians. Who are we to look to if we cannot look to our popularly elected people to save the citizens from starvation in their own area? That is the bedrock principle of Poor Law relief, the prevention of destitution. No one has said that the scale paid in West Ham, with the exception of the small proportion of cases which have been referred to, is extravagance. If you compare it, of course, with that paid in certain other areas where they have not the same regard for the welfare of the poor people, you get a comparison that is unfair to us. If it is worked out, an able-bodied man gets about 11s. a week. If that can be assumed to be extravagant, I hope hon. Members opposite will tell us what they think is a reasonable amount of money per week for able-bodied persons to live on.
Then you have to deal with the question of the family. A man and his wife before the intervention of the Minister only had 19s. per week between them to live upon. There has been some objection and the West Ham Board of Guardians were ordered to cease to give just that additional 5s. to old age pensions. I am very annoyed personally about that and I think it is the worst thing the Minister could have done. People have lived to the age of 70 and just get that money that can keep them in decency and West Ham gives them this additional 5s. That is much cheaper than these poor men and women going into the workhouse for the rest of their lives. Those are the circumstances. I hope the head shaking of the Minister does not mean that he is denying my statement, because it is being done. People were elected to carry out this detail. These guardians grant 5s. in addition to the 10s. a week old age pension. I say the statutory officers, the relieving officers, have refused to obey the instructions—I do not mean the verbal orders—made by the elected representatives of the people.

5.0 P.M.

The CHAIRMAN: This is straying rather far from the Amendment.

Mr. GROVES: I was just trying to prove that the action of the Minister was such that in the circumstances of the moment we are warranted in asking for the special intervention of a Select Committee. I think the administration in these circumstances is liable to get out of the hands of the people. I want the Minister to say why the work has been commenced of taking the administration out of the popularly elected people. With over 30,000 people on relief, it is a marvellous thing that only 100 people should have been referred to as taking advantage of the circumstances. The people in our borough are not only law-abiding and well-wishers of the community but they have acted as decently and as well as any citizens of the community could have acted. I cannot see the end of the Minister's precipitant act if he thinks he is going to send an army of officials down to West Ham to take charge of the offices. He is smiling. Does he deny that they are there? I was in the relieving station myself this morning, and I was invited to go to see them. I
did so. I might say that they brought their own typewriters. The work must be done, and I trust the Minister will realise that the appointment of a Select Committee will assist him and give the people in West Ham an opportunity of bringing to his notice the fact that when we have ourselves discovered cases of abuse it is true to say that West Ham guardians have hauled these people up before the magistrates and had them sent to prison or compelled them to pay the money back. We have done all that could reasonably be expected. After all, this is still a free country, and the action of the Minister will be doing a thing that will cut right across the freedom of this country.

Mr. RYE: I agree that this is a pretty drastic Clause and gives very wide powers to the Minister, and in the ordinary way I should have hesitated to support the Bill, but when one considers that in the latter portion of the Bill there is provision by way of safeguard, I do not think that we are entitled to consider that the powers given to the Minister are too wide. In Subsection (2) it is provided:
An Order made under this Sub-section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after it is made, and if either House within 21 day after the Order has been laid before it presents an Address to His Majesty praying that the Order may he annulled His Majesty may by Order in Council annual the Order and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder, or the making of a fresh Order.

Mr. GREENWOOD: Does the hon. Member realise that the Order to which he refers is only an Order after the Minister has exercised his discretion?

Mr. RYE: I fully appreciate that that is so.

Mr. GREENWOOD: Is the hon. Member's point that there is a safeguard in this House for the Minister's first action with regard to the West Ham Board of Guardians?

Mr. RYE: The Minister has a full discretion to exercise his rights if he is of opinion that a case is made out. My point is that if he has done so without adequate reasons, it is open to any Member of this House to raise the question in this House and ask the Minister to
give his reasons for coming to his decision. It will be open to any Member of the House to prove that it was an unreasonable action on the Minister's part. If, as a fact, the Minister had not had adequate reason, it is obvious the safeguard would be put in force and the Order made to supersede the guardians would be rescinded by Order in Council. That, I think, is the real safeguard. Personally, I cannot think any Minister would ever exercise these drastic powers except for good and sufficient reasons. It is inconceivable to suppose that any Minister holding the responsible position he does would do anything to put an end to the functions of the boards of guardians unless they were aware of must ample and sufficient reasons for doing so. At all events, if the Minister were to make a mistake—let us put it at that —or wantonly took action, there is this safeguard in Sub-section (2). In my opinion that is quite sufficient safeguard for anyone.

Mr. W. THORNE: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report. Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I am going to move to report Progress. The Hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) has made a definite statement in this House to the effect that certain officials from the Minister of Health's Department are now operating in the borough of West Ham before this power has been given to the Minister of Health. The Minister of Health shook his head and said he knew nothing about it. That same statement was endorsed by the Parliamentary Secretary. Therefore, in consequence of these two knowing nothing about what is operating in West Ham and that Government officials are down there operating—

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): Directly I heard the statement of the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) we made inquiries, and so far we have no knowledge whatever about it. The statement, as I understand it, is that the hon. Member for Stratford has seen some strange faces down there at West Ham, but so far as my Department is concerned we know nothing about it.

Mr. J. JONES: In view of the Parliamentary Secretary's innocence and all his smiles, I do not altogether fathom what he means. Some of us are acquainted with the district and know that there have been officials there. We know some of them. I came in touch with some of these officials. Some of their names have already been mentioned as the officials who are going to take over from the board of guardians. They are going to be paid for it. Some of us have worked from early in the morning till late at night at this job, and you refuse us even a shilling lunch. The report has come that these gentlemen are going round almost assuming the authority not yet given to them. Perhaps you think you can play that game with us, but we have a few cards up our sleeves that we can play yet. There is such a thing as an all-in strike, and some of us are overseers and have to levy the rate.

Sir K. WOOD: It is suggested to me that, as the audit is now taking place in West Ham, perhaps the strange faces may be those of the auditors.

Miss LAWRENCE: May—

Mr. JONES: Sit down; I am speaking. I am asking if these auditors are there. It is on these auditors' reports that you have made up your case.

The CHAIRMAN: The point on which I allowed this Motion to be made was whether there are persons in West Ham sent by the Minister in anticipation of the passing of this Bill. It must be confined to that point.

Mr. GROVES: I said that they ought not to be there without the Minister's knowledge. In reality they are the bailiffs. That is what this Bill means. I did not like to make this protest as to who they are this morning, but I think they should be stopped until the King gives his assent to this Bill.

Miss LAWRENCE: I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he has actually made the appointments of these officials and, if so, will he tell us their names and then we can see if they tally? Can he make known to the House whether these persons have been informed that this is to be their job?

Sir K. WOOD: The Committee may take it from me that none of our officials have gone down to West Ham.

Mr. B. SMITH: If the hon. Gentleman finds on inquiry that these people are there without his authority, will he take the necessary steps to secure their removal?

Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided. Ayes, 121; Noes, 245.

Division No. 341
AYES
[5.17 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Ritson, J.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hardle, George D.
Salter, Dr. Alfred


Ammon, Charles George
Harris, Percy A.
Scrymgeour, E.


Attlee, Clement Richard
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Scurr, John


Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)
Hayday, Arthur
Sexton, James




Shepherd, Arthur Lewis


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John


Barnes, A.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Sitch, Charles H.


Barr, J.
Hirst, G. H.
Smillie, Robert


Batey, Joseph
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)


Briant, Frank
Hudson, J. H, (Huddersfield)
Snell, Harry


Broad, F. A.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Bromfield, William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Bromley, J.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Stamford, T. W.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Stephen, Campbell


Buchanan, C.
Kelly, W. T.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Kennedy, T.
Sutton, J. E.


Cape, Thomas
Kenyon, Barnet
Taylor, R. A.


Charleton, H. C.
Kirkwood, D.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Cluse, W. S.
Lansbury, George
Tinker, John Joseph


Compton, Joseph
Lawrence, Susan
Townend, A. E


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lawson, John James
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.


Dalton, Hugh
Lee, F.
Varley, Frank B.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw vale)
Lindley, F. W.
Viant, S. P.


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lowth, T.
Viant, S. P.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lunn, William
Wallhead, Richard C.


Dennison, R.
MacLaren, Andrew
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen 


Dunnico, H.
March, S.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Montague, Frederick
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. Rhondda)


Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.
Morris, R. H.
Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney 


Gardner, J. P.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Welsh, J. C.


Gillett, George M.
Murnin, H.
Westwood, J.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Oliver, George Harold
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.


Greenall, T.
Palin, John Henry
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Paling, W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley).


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Windsor, Walter 


Groves, T.
Potts, John S.
Wright, W.


Grundy, T. W.
Purcell, A. A.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)



Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Riley, Ben
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—




Mr. Hayes and Mr. B. Smith 


NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Curzon, Captain Viscount


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Burton, Colonel H. W.
Davies, Dr. Vernon


Albery, Irving James
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil)


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W.Derby)
Calne, Gordon Hall
Dawson. Sir Philip


Applln, Colonel R. V. K.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Drewe, C.


Astor, Viscountess
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)


Atholl, Duchess of
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Elliot, Major Walter E.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Ellis, R. G.


Balniel, Lord
Chapman, Sir S.
Elveden, Viscount


Barnston, Major Sir Harry
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
Everard, W. Lindsay


Berry, Sir George
Clarry, Reginald George
Falle, Sir Bertram G.


Bethel. A.
Clayton, G. C.
Falls, Sir Charles F.


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Fermoy. Lord


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.
Flelden, E. B.


Brass, Captain W.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Finburgh, S.


Briscoe, Richard George
Conway, Sir W. Martin
Forrest, W.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Cooper, A. Duff
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Cope, Major William
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Couper, J. B.
Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N)
Ganzonl, Sir John


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Gates, Percy


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Crack, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham


Buckingham, Sir H.
Crookshank, Cal. C. de W. (Berwick)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col, Rt. Hon. Sir John


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.


Bullock, Captain M.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Goff, Sir Park


Gower, Sir Robert
Macintyre, I.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Grace, John
McLean, Major A.
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)


Greene, W. P. Crawford
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)


Grouse, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Macquisten, F. A.
Shepperson, E. W.


Grotrian, H. Brent
Mac Robert, Alexander M.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Guinness. Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)


Gunston, Captain D. W.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Skelton, A. N.


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Malone, Major P. B.
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klne'dine, C.)


Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.
Smithers, Waldron


Harland, A.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Harney, E. A.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Harrison, G. J. C.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Hartington, Marquess of
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)


Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Sueler, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Templeton, W. P.


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Murchison, C. K.
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St.Marylebone)
Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Neville, R. J.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Holt, Capt. H. P.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell.


Hopkins, J. W. W.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Tinne, J. A.


Hume, Sir G. H.
Nicholson, Col.Rt.Hon.W.G.Ptrsf'ld.)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Hurd, Percy A.
Nuttall, Ellis
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Hurst, Gerald B.
O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Waddington, R.


Hutchison, G. A. Clark (M ldl'n & P'bl's)
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Wallace, Captain D. E.


Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Pennefather, Sir John
Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)


Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Penny, Frederick George
Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)


Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Watts, Dr. T.


Jacob, A. E.
Perring, Sir William George
Wells, S. R.


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Pete, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.


Jephcott, A. R.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple


Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Phillpson, Mabel
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Radford, E. A.
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Ralne, W.
Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd,)


Kinloch, Cooke, Sir Clement
Ramsden, E.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Knox, Sir Alfred
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Lamb, J. Q.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl


Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Remnant, Sir James
Wise, Sir Fredric


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Rentoul, G. S.
Womersley, W. J.


Locker, Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Rice, Sir Frederick
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Looker, Herbert William
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Lord, Walter Greaves.
Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Lougher, L.
Rye, F, G.
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Salmon, Major I.
Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)


Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)



Lumley, L. R.
Sandeman, A. Stewart
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Captain Margesson and Captain


Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Sanderson, Sir Frank
Bowyer.

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Miss LAWRENCE: I desire to remind the Committee of the title of this Bill. It is not the West Ham (Extermination) Bill—it is the Board of Guardians Default Bill. It is a general Bill dealing with unions all over England. The last time we discussed this question I asked that a list of those unions who had borrowed money should be read to the House; and a very illuminating dialogue took place between Mr. Speaker and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health. Mr. Speaker—speaking of this list—said:
Are these all affected by the Bill which is about to be discussed?
and the hon. Gentleman answered, "Yes, Sir." That list includes some of the
most important industrial centres, and the Measure we are now dealing with provides that every one of those boards can be superseded by the Minister of Health. At first it was suggested by the Minister that this question should be referred to a Select Committee, but the Minister replied, "West Ham cannot wait," and that an inquiry was necessary because West Ham had pleaded guilty. Some seven or eight of us sprang to our feet crying, "When?" We were then told that the vice-chairman of the board, speaking in debate, had said that he thought that some of these cases were indefensible. The argument is that because the vice-chairman said that some of the cases were very bad, that Wrest Ham has pleaded guilty; and that because West Ham has pleaded guilty you need not inquire into any other cases.
That was the only argument in the right hon. Gentleman's speech. The question is whether the existence of all boards of guardians is to be subject to the discretion of the Minister; and he defended that policy on the ground that the chairman of the West Ham Board of Guardians said that some cases were very bad. Then, as a further defence, the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Rye) said that there were safeguards, because, if the Minister wished to supersede a board, an Order would be laid on the Table of the House and could be discussed. It is very comforting to know that you are to have an inquest after the execution, but it is not very much good to the corpse.

Mr. RYE: The inquest can be held at a very early date. It can be held the day after the Order has been made; it is not necessary to wait 21 days.

Miss LAWRENCE: The Bill says:
An Order made under this Sub-section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliamen as soon as may be after it is made, and if either House within twenty-one days after the Order has been laid before it presents an address to His Majesty praying that the Order may be annulled"—
and so on. You have, then, 21 days, and you have first to find a day for debate. Supposing that any one of these boards of guardians were brought to an end at this time of the year, what possible chance should we have of getting a day for debate in the House? And if we did get a day, I cannot, greatly as I respect the House, imagine a worse court of inquiry for such a matter. The question whether or not a board of guardians is likely to be in default is a matter which needs detailed proof, and something like a jury—something like a trial in Court. It needs to be gone into by a body of persons furnished with the necessary information. It is notorious that the House of Commons is not a place for detailed inquiry into facts; that is shown by the fact that we have Committees. The floating population of this Chamber never can settle down thoroughly to discuss facts of this nature; they are facts which, from their very nature, need investigation by a Committee. Now I come to my final point, namely, the policy and the plan by which the Minister is going to be guided in dealing with these matters. I notice that,
among the crimes in the statement which the right hon. Gentleman read out to the House, this very horrible one is included:
Old age pensions are being augmented to bring them up to the full scale of 15s. for single and 25s. for married people.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Will the hon. Lady finish the quotation?

Miss LAWRENCE: It says that old age pensions are being augmented to bring them up to the full scale of 15s. and 25s. That is the crime. Then comes the aggravation:
And in the majority of cases there is no attempt to record the circumstances of sons who might be able to pay something.
It is described as a bad thing in itself to raise the pensions to the terrific scale of 15s.; and it also says that there ought to be a proper inquiry into the circumstances of sons. Then I am a little unhappy as to the attitude of the Minister with regard to democracy. A very great deal has been made of the fact that people on out-relief are likely to vote for out-relief. Everyone knows, however, that even in West Ham—

The CHAIRMAN: This is getting rather wide of the question whether there should be a Select Committee.

Miss LAWRENCE: With all due submission, I am trying to show that the purpose for which each of these Orders is made ought to be ventilated before a Select Committee. If we can conceive of a Minister having in his mind a definite policy of bringing down out-relief to supersede democracy—I do not say it is so, but if you could have such a Minister—it would be very undesirable to place in the hands of the Minister powers which ought to be the subject almost of a judicial decision. My argument is that you cannot safely trust to the executive itself, or to one Minister of the Crown in particular, the difficult duty of discriminating when you ought to get rid of elected representatives; and I thought I was right in saying that the Minister now has shown a distinct bias against democracy in his speech. I hope that that is not disorderly. I was going to say that the persons on out-relief are very greatly outnumbered by the rest of the population—by seven to one in West Ham, by 10 to four in other cases—and you cannot say that, if the rest of the population
strongly disapprove, their votes will be overborne by those of the recipients of out-relief. To adduce that argument at all shows a bias against democracy. One case that the Minister gave was most distressing. One of the guardians said that he was a supporter of the Minister, and wanted to follow the Minister. He stood for re-election, and West Ham never sent him back again.

Sir K. WOOD: He was a Labour guardian.

Miss LAWRENCE: Yes, but he did say that he approved of the Minister. I know that the people of East Ham and West Ham are so far misguided that they do not trust people who support the policy of the Minister; but to use as a serious argument against democracy the fact that, it may be, in Barrow, or Newcastle, or Birmingham, or where not, people do not support the policy of the Minister, seems to me rather thin. My desire that this question shall go to a Select Committee is rather strengthened by the attitude the Minister took in speaking on the matter last Monday. I submit, therefore, that the question whether West Ham is in the wrong or not, whether it has pleaded guilty or not, is a very narrow foundation for saying that in no case will there be inquiry by a properly selected Committee before supersession takes place. I say that in the case of a vast number of boards in important industrial centres, for the local administration of which we have great respect, this Bill gives the Minister power to supersede any of those boards at his own unfettered discretion. That, we say, is too great a power for any Minister to have without proper confirmation and inquiry by the House of Commons, and I very much hope that when an answer is given we shall have a little more about the constitutional point, and a little more about the general powers—which are what we are discussing—and a little less of enlargement upon the particular case of one board of guardians which is serving as a scapegoat.

Mr. W. THORNE: I desire to support the Amendment which has been moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr). The real cause of this Bill, the Minister said, was some slight corruption in the Borough of West Ham in connection with the board of
guardians. I want to say unhesitatingly that the highest standard of commercial morality is not entirely on the other side of the House; I suggest that the standard of commercial morality is just as high on this side as on that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Higher!"] I think we can give them a few points in that direction. Many charges have been made against the West Ham Board of Guardians, and that is the reason why this Bill has been brought forward. As a matter of fact, if the Minister of Health had done his duty there would have been no need for this Bill at all. I think he has neglected his duty. I would remind the Committee that last year the Ministry had charge of the West Ham Union for three or four weeks, and I am convinced that if those gentlemen who were administering Poor Law relief in West Ham then had found any corruption going on, it would have been reported to the Minister at the time. If at that time he thought that there was a great deal of corruption going on, and that the West Ham Board of Guardians was not doing its duty, why did he not take action then, and not allow the matter to drift on for about 12 months?
In the course of these Debates the Minister of Health has said that at the present time the West Ham Board of Guardians have been compelled to cut down the scale of relief by 25 per cent. That is due to the fact that there is very little money. The Minister of Health has refused to grant any more money at all to the West Ham Board of Guardians. Therefore, they have to rely on the money they have collected from the various local authorities that comprise the area, and in a very short time there will be no money at all for relief of any kind. I understand that the bankers have been authorised not to allow any further overdraft, because, on the last occasion when a deputation went to the Ministry of Health, the only money they would grant was £100,000 to carry on with for the time being. The result has been that they have been compelled to cut down the scale of relief by 25 per cent. I am convinced that, if the West Ham Board of Guardians would now agree to cut down the relief to the extent of 25 per cent., this Bill would be withdrawn to-morrow, because what the Minister of Health and the Parliamentary Secretary are after is to make the boards of guardians cut
down their scales of relief all over their areas to a maximum not exceeding 40s. If that is the position, and if, when the Minister attempts to take charge of the Poor Law authority in West Ham, he attempts to cut down the scale of relief to a maximum of 40s.—which will mean that a man and his wife with six or seven children cannot receive any more than 40s.—then I am convinced that there will be very serious trouble, not only in West Ham but in many other parts of the country.
I support this Amendment because, if a Select Committee were appointed as it suggests, then, if it were known that there were any defaulting boards of guardians, or any form of corruption in the slightest degree, the guardians concerned would be summoned to appear before the Select Committee, which, as hon. Members know, would be selected from the various parties in the House. There would be an investigation, witnesses would be called and examined, and I say unhesitatingly that, if any corruption is found in West Ham or in any other place, I shall be the very first to try and get it stopped. I have never sought election to a board of guardians because I should be too sympathetic. Everyone knows, or should know, that the sympathies of members of boards of guardians who have been through the economic mill, as many of us have, must be deep-rooted and they must be more sympathetic to the poor people they represent than those who have never been through the trouble we have been through ourselves. I admit that there has been a very big improvement in the method of dealing with poor relief compared with what there was many years ago. When I was six years old there were four of us, and what my mother got was one loaf and one shilling. That was a very inhumane system. It is more humane to-day even than it was pre-War, because, pre-War, the amount was limited to about 10s., but no one can say there is any extravagance even now. You cannot find any Poor Law authority that is giving less than 19s. for a man and wife, the same as we give in West Ham, and in some cases they give 23s., and in some 24s., but when the West Ham Poor Law Authority are dealing with children our scale is very much higher than in any other part of the country. If I were a member of the
West Ham Board of Guardians my sympathies would be with the people, and I think I should be prepared to give them the full scale of relief. No one in West Ham can receive more than 25s., and then there must be a man and wife and about seven children. All forms of income are taken into consideration.
When the last deputation went to the right hon. Gentleman's Department 18 suggestions were submitted to them. They went back and reported, and I am not quite sure whether you were altogether satisfied with the replies given to those suggestions. I think they met you in every particular and I do not think you have any objection on that point. Even now you can appoint any Committee you like. A Committee chosen from the three parties could make a thorough investigation into the scale of administration. If you can find out that there has been any maladministration, if the guardians have been making any profits out of their position or receiving any perquisites or anything of that kind, I shall be with you every time, because we believe in purity of government as much as you do. If the right hon. Gentleman accepts the Amendment it will give him every opportunity and it will take a good deal of responsibility off his shoulders, because it simply means that unless it is accepted, the Minister must appoint his own men. Whether the guardians will have a chance of rebutting the charges which have been brought against them I am not in a position to say, but it appears to be dangerous to give the power to one individual, whether a Minister or anyone else, to select certain gentlemen to administer relief, more especially in West Ham, and if there was a Royal Commission to investigate the methods of relief throughout the country I am not sure that Birmingham could not be roped in for maladministration. I am quite convinced that the sympathies of working-class representatives must be more deeply rooted than those who have not been through the same difficulties.

Mr. LANSBURY: I do not think the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary have treated the Amendment as seriously as it should have been treated. The Minister has simply said the reason for not accepting it was that the West Ham Guardians could not carry on.
That argument has been thoroughly exploded. Last year he administered the union of West Ham without any authority whatever from this House, and only through the goodwill of the guardians he was let off and did not have to come to the House to be indemnified for doing what he had no business to do. If we had a Select Committee, part of their investigation could be as to what advantage there was during the period the Minister took charge and what advantage the ratepayers gained through that administration. I think that part of the Minister's activities ought to have been investigated and dealt with by the House long before now. I do not think that in dealing with even a board of guardians he has any right to act like a small Mussolini and without any authority from Parliament take over the functions of a directly elected body. Then before the Bill or anything like it is passed we ought to have an investigation as to what it is that has moved the Minister. I understood on Monday that the chief reason was that there was a corrupt motive on the part of the electors and that that, of course, would react on the elected person, who would have to satisfy the person who elected him by giving him relief which was not justified. I think all dockyard Members and all who represent Government employés are in a similar position, and some of us would like to bring evidence before such a Select Committee to, prove that dockyard Members are intimidated in that way.

The CHAIRMAN: That is neither in Order on the Amendment, nor on the Bill.

Mr. LANSBURY: I was looking in the book and it seemed to me we might be able to frame the terms of reference to the Select Committee in such a way as to cover the whole question of corruption.

Viscountess ASTOR: This is a case of municipal corruption. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]

Mr. J. JONES: You are a liar, if you say so.

Viscountess ASTOR: Is it really in order for an hon. Member to compare a dockyard Member with a board of guardians which has been proved corrupt?

Mr. JONES: You are a liar! [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] I will not withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN: I must ask the hon. Member to withdraw.

Mr. JONES: I apologise to the Noble Lady and substitute the term "terminological inexactitude."

Mr. LANSBURY: I do not know why anyone should get excited about this. We want this Select Committee in order that the charges on which the right hon. Gentleman bases his Bill may be investigated and dealt with. When the Noble Lady says people have been proved corrupt, where is the evidence? The right hon. Gentleman quoted something that was said by the Chairman of the West Ham Board, and in order to refute our arguments on this side he puts up the pamphlet of the Poplar Board, "Guilty, and Proud of it." We also plead guilty to the fact that in dealing with 10,000 cases a week we might occasionally be had, as even this House might be had by someone who deceived it. We do not say we are people who can always know what is in each other's minds and when we are dealing with a very large number of poor people to whom 6d. or 1s. something of consequence we may perhaps be deceived. But the real crime of that is not with the individual but with that sort of system of society which makes it pay poor people to tell a lie in order to get a paltry 6d. We want this investigated by a Select Committee. We do not think it is good enough to take West Ham and make it a sort of chopping block as it has been made here.
This is not a Bill to deal with West Ham only. It is to deal with all boards that the right hon. Gentleman thinks may get themselves in difficulties. Another point the Committee ought to investigate is the action of the right hon. Gentleman in putting them into difficulties. He can always land a board into difficulties if he wants to. He can say: "You shall not have any more money. I will not sanction any more of your loans." But I am certain if a Select Committee was set up to investigate the administration of the Poor Law in necessitous areas where loans are necessary the House would be surprised at the purity of administration of all those
boards. The Parliamentary Secretary cited a case the other night where there was a family income of £7 a week. I think that is a case a Select Committee ought to go into and put all the facts on the Table. The notorious Mr. Cooper thought he investigated us in Poplar by running through our establishments. He put up a case where someone had been getting £4 a week, and asked, "Does anyone imagine that this man will ever go to work again?" The House of Commons was deceived over that case which was flung across the Floor, and thought that everyone in Poplar got £4 a week, and also that this particular man would never go to work again. As a matter of fact he only had the relief for one week, and was back at his work again, and he had a family of 10 children to maintain. I asked the hon. Gentleman to tell us the particulars of this £7 case, and he refused. If we could get before a Select Committee we should have all these cases investigated in a proper manner. We want a Select Committee because, frankly, we do not trust the right hon. Gentleman or his assistant. It is true that this is a question of political principle. You believe in starving the people. We believe in preventing their starvation.

Viscountess ASTOR: indicated dissent.

Mr. LANSBURY: It is no good the Noble Lady shaking her head. It shows her ignorance of social conditions. She is the most ignorant Member in the House about social conditions. For a wealthy woman to be always interfering when the conditions of poor people are discussed, is simply disgusting.
6.0. P.M.
The genesis of this controversy is the question whether poor people are to be adequately relieved or not. When it was a question of the men coming home from the War, you gave them almost all that they were pleased to ask for. We want a Select Committee to go into the matter and to be able to investigate it by questioning the right hon. Gentleman as to what exactly is in his mind. In the East End we believe that what he has in his mind in regard to the able-bodied is that he is going to attempt to cause the men who are out of work to live on the miserable pittance that they get from unemployment insurance. I would like the right hon. Gentleman or the Parlia-
mentary Secretary to deny that. Is it not a fact that they intend to do their best to forbid and stop boards of guardians from giving any assistance to men who are on the Employment Exchange? We have heard such a rumour. Before such a principle can be laid down, this House ought to appoint a Select Committee to investigate the whole conditions.
It is no answer to say to us that the case is proved. There has been no investigation. When we are told that 100 or even 1,000 cases have been investigated, all it means is that there is a different standard of relief set up by boards of guardians from the one which the right hon. Gentleman thinks ought to be set up. Hon. Members opposite believe in democracy when democracy does what they want it to do, but when democracy does something different, they want to abolish it. Before it is abolished in the case of boards of guardians, there ought to be a Select Committee set up. I hope the Committee will carry our Amendment.

Sir BEDDOE REES: I have no intention of discussing the merits of the West Ham case. I have got sufficient data to judge of that case; but this Bill goes very far beyond West Ham. In confers powers upon the Minister of Health which will have to be used with great care. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment in some form. There are not sufficient safeguards in the Bill. A Select Committee is a very complex proceeding, and the Minister would be compelled to wait a very considerable time before he could get the findings of a Select Committee. Even that is better than nothing. I would not mind a judicial inquiry; but I do think that there should be some inquiry before the Minister acts under the powers given in this Bill. The only safeguard, so far as I can see is that which says:
An Order made under this Sub-section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after it is made, and if either House within twenty-one days after the Order has been laid before it presents an address to His Majesty praying that the Order may be annulled.
There is an Amendment on the Paper making that positive, reversing the order, and providing that the Order is not to be put into operation until it has received
assent by Resolution of this House. If the Minister can tell us that he will accept that Amendment, I should be satisfied, but without some safeguard I do not think we ought to let this Bill go. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to satisfy us, because we are very apprehensive. We believe that he is taking powers which are unprecedented, which strike at the very root of what we believe to be democratic government, namely, powers to suppress a popularly-elected representative body. If he is to take action of that sort, it should be done after the fullest inquiry, and this House should, at least, have an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon it. Unless we can have some satisfaction on that point, I shall vote for the Amendment.

Mr. J. JONES: In so far as we are concerned as representatives of part of the West Ham Union area—which has unfortunately been designated as West Ham, much to our disadvantage—we court full inquiry. West Ham Union is the largest Poor Law area in the country, including eight different townships. The name of West Ham has been advertised to such an extent, before and after the event, that we have had a great deal of discredit cast upon us because we happen to come from West Ham. In addition to any other claim, I happen to have been a member of the West Ham Board of Guardians in the past when some friends of hon. Gentlemen opposite were sent to gaol for corruption. Of six men who went to gaol, five of them belonged to the party opposite. One of them was a member of our party, but he was expelled a month before his trial took place because they discovered that he had been doing things he ought not to have done.
The Minister of Health deliberately went out of his way in introducing this Bill to make corruption the basis of his case. He has power, if he elects to do so, to single out those who have been guilty of corruption. He has power to send his inspectors to every committee. Some of them have been there already. I remember that Mr. Oxley was a regular attendant at the meetings of the board of guardians and of the different committees. In a radius such as ours, with a population of 1,250,000, it is impossible to deliver all the relief at one station. We have to sub-divide the work, with the
result that we have 15 relief stations in the West Ham Poor Law area. The consequence is that we have to sub-divide the work amongst members of the board.
What is the gravamen of the charge? The charges are epitomised in the report of the auditor, which has been issued. He has picked out 100 cases during a period of three years. During those three years we have had an average, taking the industrial troubles through which we have passed, of more than 25,000 cases a week to deal with, in eight to 15 relief stations. We challenge any court of inquiry or any committee of investigation. This is the worst report that could be made against us. The gentleman, evidently, went down to West Ham with instructions to pick out cases, and he picked them out. Out of the whole of the cases there are really only two cases. I challenge the House to appoint any committee they like. Leave us out of it, call us as witnesses if you desire. On the basis of the charges in this report, if the West Ham Board of Guardians are abolished, you will be committing one of the grossest acts of treachery towards democracy, if this is all the evidence that can be submitted and if these are the worst cases that can be found.
The allegation has been made that members of the Board had relatives working for the Board. Good God! What a crime! Relatives of Ministers have high office in the government of the country. I remember that one of them some years ago went to gaol for seven years. He was a relative of a Minister of the Crown at the time. If we examined now the list of those who hold high office under the Crown, it would be found that they include the political sons or orphans of the storm from the last election. Those who did not secure seats are now, in many cases, County Court Judges, simply because of services rendered to the party. In the last honours list we find that the chairman of a Conservative Association has been made a baronet. These gentlemen receive honours, and the next day their names appear in the list of a board of directors who want some money from the public. The guinea pig then becomes a prominent person, because his name can be depended upon to get money out of the mugs. That is not corruption, but if a member of the West Ham Board of Guardians has
a son who applies for a job under the Beard, and he gets it, he becomes a criminal because he happens to be that man's son.
I ask the right hon. Gentleman, "Is that your charge of corruption?" If so, other people have been doing that for years. In the past, no-one of the working classes could even apply for a job, never mind get it. Since Labour became a dominant factor, this sort of thing has been discovered to be corrupt, simply because we give the worker a chance which he never had before of filling jobs which he had never been able to do before, because he happened to be a workman. Talk about square pegs in round holes! In so far as we are concerned, we will take the document upon which the evidence is based and put it before any Committee. Call it a Select Committee or any other Committee. Give us a chance of defending ourselves, and allow us to put other people in the pillory. Let us have a chance of putting the Birmingham Board of Guardians on the mat. They are paying, on the average, 11s. a year more than we pay in West Ham. Of course, they are not extravagant! They belong to the holy of holies! Your name is Chamberlain, therefore, you cannot do wrong, but if you belong to our crew down in West Ham, you are a criminal before you are tried.
All we are asking for in this Amendment is that we shall have fair play; that the Court shall not be held in Hell, with the Devil as the presiding magistrate. I am quite frank about it. It is a case of our being at the mercy of one man. If I was fighting for the principle for which he fights, I should say, "Take this Bill for all it is worth." Our turn is coming, and we shall have a Minister of Health, and we shall say to the reactionary boards of guardians throughout the country, "Come up to the level of the progressive boards in the matter of relief. You are not paying enough. You must treat the people as human beings." I went to a board of guardians once, when I was a much younger man than I am now. I had a wife and two children. The scale of relief then was 1s. a day and a loaf of bread for each child, but before you could get the relief you had to break a quarter-hundred-
weight of stone or pick a quarter of d pound of oakum. Different times have come. We have altered the Poor Law, wherever we have had an opportunity. There is more humane treatment now.
I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman wants to go back to those old days, I would not make such a charge against him. I would not charge him with that, bad as he is, but I do charge him with this, that the principle of his party is that they want to force the scale of relief down below the standard of wages of the ordinary unskilled labourer, so that no longer will it be possible for boards of guardians to give a scale of relief which will enable the man to refuse a sweating job. The slogan which we have heard on platforms in the East End of London is that no man ought to receive so much relief as would give him more than the unskilled labourer gets when he is in employment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Exactly. That is what I wanted to hear from hon. Members opposite. The Poor Law is to be used to help the employer to force down wages. That is the only question at stake, and that is the secret of this Bill. Those boards of guardians which refuse to help the sweating employer of labour to get cheap labour are to be put in the pillory, but those who are prepared to do the dirty work of the employers will get the benediction of the right hon. Gentleman and they will have money to help them in their campaign. We have to come to him because we are poor. [An HON. MEMBER: "Bankrupt."] Some of you have been bankrupt, and you are better off after your bankruptcy than we are when we are well off. We ask that some Committee should be appointed. The right hon. Gentleman can settle for himself what sort of a Committee it shall be, but we do ask that some Committee shall be appointed to inquire into the charges made against us, and if Labour members of the board of guardians are found to have been corrupt, or have done something for which they are liable, then we will not back them up, you can send them to gaol. The Government have all the power they want under the existing law without bringing in this Bill, which is in the end an attack on the standard of life of the people of this country.

Mr. HARNEY: I know nothing of the details of the West Ham case, but judging from the speeches we have heard during this Debate this seems to be a very drastic action to take in connection with a half-proved offence. If we assume that everything that is alleged has gone on at West Ham, is it really any justification for a Bill of this character? I do not think the Committee fully appreciates the far-reaching powers given to the Minister by this Measure. They are to be brought into operation because of a single case out of the numerous boards of guardians in England, and are to be put into operation against one of our oldest institutions. The Bill provides that where it appears to the Minister of Health that the board of guardians for any Poor Law union have ceased, or are acting in such a manner, as appears to the Minister, to render them unable to discharge at or any of their functions of the board, then the Minister can simply wave his land and tell them to clear out. He can put in his own nominees; his nominees can be kept there for 12 months. If he thinks fit the Minister can extend that period for six months, and, if necessary, he is entitled to pay advisers to put his nominees right. That is what is proposed in this Bill.
I do not suggest that the right hon. Gentleman would do anything sinister, but he is not the only Minister of Health we shall have in the future. What is meant by the phrase "appears to the Minister" that a board of guardians is unable to discharge any of its functions. A board of guardians has many functions. Can you pick out any one of these functions and say that a board of guardians is incapable of discharging that function? Can the Minister say that a board of guardians have put themselves in such a position that makes it likely, in his opinion, that they will not properly discharge that function? This Bill enables the Minister of his own sweet will to say to the West Ham Board of Guardians, or to any other board of guardians in the country, "I do not like the cut of your clothes, or the shape of your hair, clear out" There is nothing to prevent it. You have the expression, "Where it appears to the Minister" If he turned out a board of guardians contrary to the public opinion of the whole community and he was brought to Court on a mandamus it would be sufficient for
him to say that "it appears to me—I may be a fool; I may be a crank—but it appears to me"; and that would be final in a Court of Law. Is it fair because of some sense of annoyance, rightly or wrongly, which the Minister may feel in reference to the conduct of the West Ham guardians, that he should force a disability on one of the most respected and ancient institutions of this country? I have heard no justification for it. It has been said that all the Government are going on is some 100 cases out of some hundreds of thousands. The Minister of Health says that these 100 cases do not represent all the cases. That may be, but is it necessary to pass such legislation as this without any inquiry? The hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) was very indignant indeed that he should be charged with corruption, and he threw out a challenge to bring the charge before a proper tribunal. He asked whether it is right that the Minister, who takes a view opposed to that of the hon. Member for Silvertown should have the power, of his own sweet will, to say, "It appears to me, and that is good enough. All you fellows are corrupt, and, therefore, I will supersede you, put in a board of guardians of my own, keep them there for 12 months, extend the time if I choose, and if I find my board of guardians utterly incompetent I can then charge the taxpayer with the cost of advisers to help them to do the work."

Mr. MORGAN JONES: I should not have intervened in this Debate but for the fact that this Bill has a far more general application than to the case of West Ham. It is a menace to other boards of guardians which operate in South Wales, and it is for that reason that I take part in this discussion. In the course of his remarks last Monday the Minister of Health indicated that there were ample grounds on which to justify this Bill. There is, in his view, a considerable amount of corruption, as he says, in the West Ham Union area, and presumably we are to accept that as a justification for applying these extreme powers to all other boards of guardians which happen to fall under the ban of his displeasure in the future. We have had a fair answer from the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) on that point. Surely the law of the land is strong enough to deal with any corruption. If the Minister is in a position to assert
that this corruption is very widespread then it is up to him, it is his duty, to take whatever steps the law provides to arrest these corrupt practices and vindicate the morality of local government. But if, on the other hand, as seems to be the case, the measure of corruption which the Minister is able to prove is indeed very small and limited, then I ask what justification can there be for taking the tremendous powers in this Bill in order to deal with a very limited amount of corruption in a particular part of the Metropolis of London.
If my assumption is correct, if this so-called corruption is limited to one particular area in London, or to one particular board of guardians in London, is it fair to invest the Minister with powers and authority which will enable him to deal not merely with this particular board of guardians which he alleges is corrupt, but with all the other boards of guardians throughout the country? I resent very much the implication conveyed by the speech of the Minister, that one of the justifications for introducing this Bill is the presence of corruption in local government. We all know the real reason why this problem has become so acute in various parts of the country. The Minister appointed a Committee to inquire into the burden of certain areas known as necessitous areas, and in the course of their remarks they indicate that it is obvious that the main burden, the exceptional and abnormal burden, now borne on the shoulders of the Poor Law authorities, is created by the exceptional unemployment in this country. The West Ham guardians are quite aware of this. They acknowledge it, and, knowing that this is the reason for the exceptional burden, they have submitted to the Minister and his Committee a scheme whereby this exceptional problem and burden might be mitigated to some degree.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy): The hon. Member is making a speech somewhat too wide in scope. The question now is whether this matter should be considered by a Select Committee.

Mr. MORGAN JONES: I do not want to go outside the Rules of Order in the slightest degree. I am trying to point out that so far from there being anything in
the nature of corruption at all, a considerable degree of the problem is one which concerns all boards of guardians throughout the country, and it can be dealt with in another way than by vesting the Minister of Health with the exceptional powers in this Bill. In order to limit the autocracy of the right hon. Gentleman I am going to support the Amendment that a special Select Committee shall be appointed to inquire into the matter. I was arguing—if I am still in Order—that the exceptional problem arises from the exceptional measure of unemployment in the country, and that, therefore, if there is a fault to be attached to anybody on account of the immensity, or the intensity, of unemployment, the fault lies with the right hon. Gentleman himself in so far as he has failed to come to the help or the assistance of the authorities.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is, I think, going somewhat outside the scope of the Amendment.

Mr. JONES: I desire to keep in order, and I shall leave for the present that particular point; but I would like to submit that a responsibility rests with the Government, and because of that, the Minister ought not to ask for the exceptional powers involved here. What does the right hon. Gentleman suggest to deal with this particular disease in local government? He wants exceptional powers. He wants to be able entirely to suspend—not entirely to abrogate—but to suspend the powers of the boards of guardians for a period of time. It is the right hon. Gentleman himself who makes this demand. What is the criticism made against those of us who call ourselves Socialists? Hon. Gentlemen opposite say that we put forward schemes from time to time which tend, at least in respect to some of them, to an increase of bureaucracy in this country. Surely there cannot be a more blatant attempt to increase bureaucracy in this country than is contained in this particular Clause? That, in the case where we have duly-elected local authorities actually conducting their functions in a normal way, the right hon. Gentleman, who accuses us of excessive love of bureaucracy, proposes to remove these local bodies? What he says in effect is:
I am a monarch of all I survey,
My right there is none to dispute.
That is exactly the position. There is a determined advance on the other side along those lines—

Major COLFOX: On a point of Order. Is not the hon. Gentleman making a Second Reading speech?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Gentleman is endeavouring to argue that the powers of the Minister should be limited.

Mr. JONES: That is precisely the point I am trying to make, and I think it is for the most part apprehended by hon. Members. The point I was making is this: the Minister of Health desires to have the power to remove from his path the boards of guardians who fail to come up to the standards that he sets before them. If the right hon. Gentleman desires to have powers to deal with local authorities in default why not—I am not concealing the point that we think he ought not to do anything at all to interfere with the rights of local governing bodies in the matter—but if he is to interfere why not take steps to have a re-election of the board of guardians?

Sir K. WOOD: It has been explained before that that would not be practicable.

Mr. JONES: If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to intimate now that he will accept this Amendment, I need not say anything more on the matter. I would submit that there is another danger that arises from this proposal. We are told quite frequently from the other side that there is a great danger of depressing the spirit of the local electors in various areas, and that the great need of the time is to keep up a more intense interest in local government affairs than is now the case.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is getting beyond the scope of the Amendment. Perhaps he will confine his remarks to the question before the Committee.

Mr. JONES: Quite so. The point I desire to make now is this: If the right hon. Gentleman takes these powers, then the consequence will be that the local electors in the various areas will say to themselves: "Why should we worry, and come to the assistance of the State in local affairs. If things go wrong, the Minister
interferes on our behalf; he will take the matter under his control, and we need not worry at all." I submit to the Committee that this would engender a false confidence among the electors in the Poor Law areas, and will be doing a very great disservice indeed to the principles of democracy. Surely what has been suggested is strictly à propos to the question before the Committee at the moment.
May I put a further question? What is going to be the effect of the vesting of this authority in the right hon. Gentleman? Not very long ago, I think the week before last to be precise, the Poor Law guardians of the Pontyprid area suddenly discovered that they were unable to pay out Poor Law relief. There was a hue and cry, and the members of the Welsh section of the Labour party had a special meeting to discuss the matter. We were told that this area, which comprised a huge population, a population of about half a million, was in this desperate position, that the guardians had no money whatever to pay out in relief—quite temporarily, I admit. That board of guardians had already agreed with the Minister to reduce its scale of relief by a certain amount. What will be the consequence in that case of the alteration to Poor Law guardians, if any authority is confronted with this frightful impasse? The right hon. Gentleman will in future be able to go to the various other boards of guardians in South Wales, and say that Pontypridd had agreed with him, and that Merthyr must now agree, that Neath must now agree, and that the various other Poor Law guardians must accept the same standard! Suppose any one of these boards of guardians proves itself to be rather somewhat recalcitrant in the matter, what will the Minister say? He will say that Clause 1 of the Bill gives him the power to interfere in the matter because the board of guardians
have ceased, or are acting in such a manner as will render them unable to discharge all or any of the functions,
and so on. The right hon. Gentleman will use this particular Clause, as I suggest, harshly and unjustly, to bring undue pressure to bear on those who are in charge, and endeavouring to discharge local government functions honestly, decently, and efficiently. In order to prevent that occurring we have moved this Amendment, and have suggested
that where there is a local governing body alleged to be in default, that before the Minister exercises his arbitrary and dictatorial powers in this way the thing should be submitted to a Select Committee of this House, and that in that way—even though we have to concede for the sake of argument the point that the right hon. Gentleman has a right to remove the duly-elected persons from their office—in that way he will be still re-connecting—if I may use the expression—another duly-elected authority so as to keep the democratic element in connection with local government work. For these reasons, I have very great pleasure in supporting the Amendment.

Major CRAWFURD: As one who represents a portion of the West Ham Board of Guardians' area I naturally have a very great interest in this Bill, because all through the country the West Ham Board of Guardians action has been quoted on both sides. I do suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he has a special responsibility to satisfy, if he can, those who do represent areas within this particular Poor Law district. But I have risen to ask him, or his colleague the Parliamentary Secretary, if it is possible before the Division on this Amendment takes place for either of them to give an answer to the question which was put to them, I think, for the hon. Member for one of the divisions of Bristol (Sir Beddoe Rees). He pointed out that there was a later Clause which would affect the making of an Order, and he suggested that that Order should lie on the Table before being put into operation and not afterwards—in other words, that the matter could be questioned before the Order was made. That seems to me to be important, because, whatever else you are dealing with under this particular Clause, you are going to enlarge the arbitrary and autocratic position of the Minister in a way that has been very well put by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney).
What, however, I want to direct the attention of the Committee and the right hon. Gentleman to is the fact that in Clause 1 he is taking powers to suspend the operations of the boards of guardians for a charge that may be quite unspecified. The language is vague:
Acting in such a manner as will render them unable to discharge"—
to prevent them carrying out their work. Therefore, the effect of this Bill is that, for an unspecified charge against a popularly-elected body, you get the arbitrary action of the Minister. Whether you are right or whether you are wrong—and I think the question could be much better argued without any reference to any particular board of guardians—is not that a very serious thing to do? All the Amendment does is to suggest that a body responsible to this House, which is also a democratically-elected body, should be able to take a decision before the Minister's Order is put into effect. I am going to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will give a little consideration to this. Walthamstow has recently suffered under another decision taken by a Government Department, the effect of which is that the whole district is being put under a kind of ban because of the action, or alleged action, of certain members in this district.
The only justification—I shall be glad to be corrected if I am wrong—of the action of the right hon. Gentleman will be this: that in a particular district this democratically-elected body, the board of guardians has failed, in other words that democracy itself has failed! I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman will give some satisfaction to the people in the district—who do not support the particular people that we represent—in other words, it would give some chance of democracy succeeding in the future in that district, if he would allow some sort of inquiry to be made, so that the facts could be arrived at, the charges could be made, and if possible proved, and so justification shown for arbitrary action of this kind. It is in the interests of the other inhabitants of these districts, and in view of the effect up them and their position of decisions of this kind, that I urge the Government to give very careful consideration to this proposal, and if the Parliamentary Secretary cannot accept this Amendment I hope he will be able to accept a later Amendment which will have the effect of enabling discussion and a decision in this House to precede any such Order.

Mr. HARNEY: Does this Clause provide only for the laying on the Table of the Order referring to the extension
of the period or does this provision apply to the original Order made? It seems to me on the reading of the Clause it only applies to the Order for the six-months period.

Mr. WALLHEAD: The fate which has overtaken the West Ham Board of Guardians is one which may overtake the board of guardians for the district which I have the honour to represent, because that area is, like many others, labouring under such disadvantages as those which we have had exemplified in the case of West Ham. We are passing through an abnormal period and we cannot say what the effect of the present dispute is going to be. It is extremely likely that unemployment will remain with us in an accentuated form for some time. There is likely to be a continuance of poverty and it is certain that, under such conditions, boards of guardians will find a tremendous strain placed upon them. I am sure that will be the case in Merthyr Tydvil. They are finding the strain, even at the present moment, and if this Bill be passed without this Amendment it will be open to the Minister at any moment to sweep down upon them, take over their functions, appoint his own officials and run the place as he thinks fit. That is too great a power to he placed in the right hon. Gentleman's hands.
I will try to keep within the bounds of order, but I must point out the reason why this Bill is necessary is because the Government have neglected their own pledges and their own duties in dealing with the question of necessitous areas. Had that been done, much of the existing trouble might have been obviated. There should be a frank inquiry of a public character into the conditions obtaining in any of the unions that come under the ban of the Minister before he is allowed to take the action proposed in the Bill. Even on the merits of the case presented for this Bill, what is happening is far less a matter of corruption than of genorosity on the part of those who, themselves, have felt the pinch of poverty. I do not believe for a single moment that it can be charged definitely or in any legal sense that there has been corruption on the part of the West Ham Board of Guardians. If it is corruption to say to a person, "We propose to treat you
with common decency," then, of course, the West Ham Board of Guardians is corrupt, but it must not be expected that all boards of guardians, now or in the future, are going to take the views held by boards of guardians in the past. You cannot expect that boards of guardians comprising numbers of working people are going to adopt the same point of view as that of previous boards of guardians and are going to exercise their powers in a punitive spirit. Working people are not going to regard poverty or unemployment as a reason for punishment.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member started very well by saying that he was going to try to keep within the bounds of order, but I think he is now going beyond the scope of the Amendment.

Mr. WALLHEAD: I do not wish to stray from the point. Because certain action is likely to be taken, I think there is every reason why we should have a public inquiry into all cases of this kind instead of giving the Minister the arbitrary power which is sought in this Bill. I hope the House will recognise the monstrous nature of the claim that is being made—that the Minister can of his own free will over-set boards of guardians in various parts of the country and take over their functions, without any overriding power of any kind. It is a proposal which the House of Commons ought to reject with all its power, and I hope those hon. Members who represent constituencies where the boards of guardians may find themselves in a tight place owing to the present depression, will join in rejecting the Bill and in insisting that such power as this, should only be granted after the case has been inquired into by a Select Committee of the House of Commons.

Sir K. WOOD: I wish to reply to one or two of the questions which have been addressed to me in the course of this discussion. Many of the arguments which have been addressed to the Committee are in the nature of attempts to reverse the decision at which the House of Commons arrived when this Bill was given a Second Reading. The case then put forward by my right hon. Friend was that in relation to one particular board, an exceptional situation has arisen which called for exceptional powers
and, on the evidence which was tendered to the House of Commons by my right hon. Friend and myself, the House by a large majority agreed that exceptional powers of this kind should be given to the Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "Your own party."] Well, that is the way in which we govern our country and, therefore, I hope hon. Members will excuse me if I do not combat once again the arguments which were used against us and develop once again the case which we made on the last occasion. I only recall, as far as the general nature of the Bill is concerned, one statement which I made on the Second Reading as to the intention of this Bill and the reason why it was drawn in such wide terms.
This Bill is an emergency Measure designed first to deal with an urgent situation which has been developing for some time and has now become acute, and, secondly, and with an equally necessary object, possibly to prevent and, in any case, to circumvent, a similar situation if such should arise in other parts of the country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th July, 1926; col. 1748, Vol. 197.]
I do not think any hon. Member would desire us to bring in a Bill for dealing only with one particular board of guardians so that if the same circumstances were to arise in connection with another board of guardians we should have to bring in another Pill to deal specially with that case also. Obviously this Bill must be drafted in general terms and must be made applicable to any case which may arise. Criticism has been offered as to the wide terms of this particular Clause and I was asked if we were going to accept an Amendment later on, which would prevent the Minister from proceeding to deal with other cases, as suggested in the Bill, unless the particular matter came before Parliament. We shall not be able to accept that Amendment.

Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Why?

Sir K. WOOD: We shall discuss it no doubt when the Amendment comes up. Obviously in cases of this kind the Minister must be able to deal immediately with such situations. The immediate proposition before the Committee is that before the Minister can make an order to supersede a board of guardians a Select Committee of the House of Commons should inquire into the case. It would be a most remarkable proceeding if you adopted that course in the present case of West
Ham. This week they are nearing the end of their financial resources. I suppose in a few days time those resources will have come to an end. Is it suggested while this is going on, that a Select Committee which might sit for weeks, should be set up to inquire into the matter? What is to happen to the finances of West Ham in the interim?

Mr. LANSBURY: Lend them some more money.

Sir K. WOOD: The hon. Gentleman suggests we should lend them more money. That is a nice proposition. Apparently the hon. Member expects the Minister of Health to advance to the West Ham Board of Guardians another large sum of money without any conditions at all, or if the West Ham Board of Guardians refused to accept the conditions of my right hon. Friend, they are still to have the money and they are to have it all the time a Select Committee is sitting which may be for months and months. All that time my right hon. Friend is to be lending the money of the State under conditions which he does not recommend himself, and yet he is to be responsible to the House of Commons for the money he is so lending.

Mr. LANSBURY: They would have a right to it.

Sir K. WOOD: It is obviously an impossible position and one which cannot be seriously considered. The suggestion is ludicrous on the face of it. As my right hon. Friend reminded the House, the proposition of the Amendment is not one which the Labour party themselves have made in their own Measures. There is no suggestion in the Labour party's Measure in respect of default by a council in regard to housing, where they authorise the Minister to make an Order that there should be a Select Committee upon it. The same remark applies to the Labour party's Unemployment Bill. I do not, however, rely upon these examples for my case this afternoon. I may tell hon. Gentlemen opposite that this Clause follows very largely the wording of Section 63 of the Elementary Education Act of 1870 which has been put into operations when various school boards have defaulted. Obviously, when you are dealing with an exceptional case of this kind, you must have a drastic remedy, and I admit this is a drastic remedy, but if the
Minister makes any mistake in any action which he takes under this Clause, he will be responsible to the House of Commons for it, and, obviously, if action is to be taken in connection with another board of guardians and if hon. Members consider it to be improper action, they will have the right to challenge the decision of my right hon. Friend in the House of Commons. As they know, they can get a very early date on which to make their challenge—not perhaps if the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), who wanted to make the challenge by himself, but I am referring to the big body of opinion of hon. Members opposite. In the circumstances, I hope the Committee will agree that in a case of this kind we must give the Minister such power as is laid down in this particular Clause. Such power must, of necessity, be given in a case like West Ham where money is being constantly borrowed for so long. If this particular board of guardians were existing on its own resources of course there would be no necessity for the Bill. There would be no question then, as the hon. and learned Gentleman would appreciate, of the local authorities ceasing to function.

7.0 P.M.

Mr. WALLHEAD: Will you tell us where you find that?

Sir K. WOOD: I will read the Subsection, which says:
where it appears…. that the board of guardians have ceased or are acting in such a manner as to render them unable to discharge all the functions exercisable by the board.

Major CRAWFURD: Did that phrase of the hon. Gentleman mean to convey cases where guardians had come to the end of their resources?

Sir K. WOOD: The first phrase is: "Where… the board of guardians have ceased." That is to say, have ceased to be able to carry on because they are not able to operate their functions.

Mr. HARNEY: It does not say pecuniarily unable. It says "unable."

Major CRAWFURD: That is exactly what I meant when, in the course of my
remarks, I said the charge was unspecified. If, as the hon. Member now tells me, it was only instances where they have for financial reasons become unable to act, that is a different matter. It does not say so.

Sir K. WOOD: if the hon. Member can conceive any other case in which they would cease, I cannot. Therefore I say to the hon. Gentlemen opposite that, so far as this matter is concerned, there is no necessity either to get prior sanction from this House or to intervene by setting up a Select Committee.

Mr. HARNEY: The hon. Gentleman has said that "unable" is necessarily confined to not having money; suppose all the guardians were in prison, they would be "unable" Suppose a guardian was, in the opinion of the Minister, not sufficiently intellectual or competent.

Sir K. WOOD: I do not think an hon. Member with the experience of my hon. and learned Friend would bring that forward. There would be some other Section of the Statute for what is to be done in a case of that kind.

Miss LAWRENCE: if they do not cover cases of default where no such financial considerations came in, how did the Board of Education come in?

Sir K. WOOD: I cannot say as to that. At any rate, no Poor Law union which has ceased to function and is acting in such a way as to render them unable—

Sir HENRY SLESSER: How can the words "or acting in such a manner" contemplate, according to the hon. Member's argument, the possession of funds, where they have no funds?

Sir K. WOOD: That is exactly the West Ham case—
or acting in such a manner as to render them unable to discharge all the functions exercisable by the board.
What they are doing in West Ham is that they are acting in such a manner and refusing to comply with the conditions which have been made. They are acting in such a manner as to render them unable to discharge any or all of their functions. I think, if hon. Gentlemen will look at this particular Clause carefully, they will agree with the statement that I have made. I say that there
is no necessity to interpose any question of a Select Committee or to get the approval of the House before that Order is made.

Major CRAWFURD: May I put this question to the hon. Member? According to his interpretation of Clause 1, the Minister cannot proceed on any charge of corruption.

Sir K. WOOD: I think my right hon. Friend made it clear on the Second Reading of this Bill that the reason why we were bringing in the Bill was owing to the fact that the West Ham Board of Guardians, through various reasons, one of which was maladministration, had put themselves in such a position that they were unable to discharge all or any of their functions.

Mr. BARNES: The best reason we can have on this side for our Amendment is the defence of the Parliamentary Secretary. He has offered to us explanations that have already been seriously challenged in various parts of the Committee. It is because we do not consider a Minister or a Department should have these powers of superseding the local government in vague phrases of this sort that we have put forward our Amendment. This Amendment is designed for the express purpose of ensuring that a Select Committee of this House, composed of Members of all sides of the House—an impartial tribunal—shall first ascertain the facts before the Minister can use these powers. One cannot conceive that the powers sought under this Bill will be sought for any other reason than partisan purposes. It is most obvious that powers of this description, vested in the Minister, acting for a Government will only be used against their political opponents. They can only be used against political opponents. Let us take the issue involved in this Amendment and this Bill. The Amendment of course desires to remove the power which the Minister takes under this Bill. Let us consider the case on which the Minister is asking for this power. It is the case of a Labour board of guardians in conflict with the views of the Conservative Minister of Health. Labour guardians' policy and their scales are built up on broad social views. They have certain social conceptions as to how a scale
should be built up for Poor Law purposes, whereby the community in its corporate capacity renders itself responsible for the citizen in his individual capacity. The Conservative view of that social responsibility is entirely different from the Labour view of social responsibility. Therefore there is bound to be a considerable divergence as to what scale should actually operate. I notice the Parliamentary Secretary was not, in that instance, building his case up on the alleged corruption in one or two cases. He eventually came down to defend his position against the question of the hon. and learned Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) on the financial position. The financial position of the West Ham Board of Guardians is not due to either half-a-dozen, a dozen, or a hundred alleged cases of corruption whether political or anything else. The financial position of the West Ham Board of Guardians is due to the mass of poverty in West Ham, therefore we consider—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is getting beyond the scope of the Amendment.

Mr. BARNES:: What I was endeavouring to point out was that the Parliamentary Secretary used the words that the board of guardians would cease to carry out their functions because their financial resources would come to an end.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That question cannot be discussed at this point.

Mr. BARNES: Our Amendment is designed to enable Parliament to ascertain the whole facts of the situation in any local government area where the Minister proposes to exercise these powers, so that Parliament shall have the facts before they give the Minister permission to exercise them. Therefore I submit that the argument I was endeavouring to use is very essential to the Committee before it decides whether it shall accept this Select Committee or give the powers direct to the Minister. Another point which the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned was that this emergency, which they are now seeking powers to cope with, has been developing for some time. That is an additional reason why the Committee should accept our Amendment. I am satisfied that if, 12 months or two years ago, we had had powers whereby a Select Committee
could have investigated the facts of the West Ham situation, we should not have had a Bill of this description before the House, but the House would have renewed the national obligation towards local areas of that description. As a matter of fact this question about financial resources when the guardians of West Ham cease to function or carry out any of their duties, is not a recent one. It dates, I think, from about 1921 to 1922, before we had a Labour majority on the West Ham Board of Guardians. If the Minister will accept this Amendment, long before a local situation becomes acute, and represents acute conflict between the local board and the Ministry of Health, you would have power to establish a Select Committee of this House and could ascertain the facts of the financial administration, the conditions of the locality and exactly what the problem is. In all fairness no Member opposite could say he is conversant with the situation in West Ham. Members are conversant with the flood of misrepresentation through the Press of this country and from the Minister himself. That is the most regrettable thing in the situation. The Minister is thoroughly conversant with the facts, and he knows perfectly well that our situation is not due to malpractices or to the guardians abusing any of their functions. The Minister knows that our difficulties result from a set of circumstances which are quite abnormal and beyond the control of the residents in that particular locality. When an apparent conflict is developing between the Minister of Health and a board of guardians it is far better both for Parliament and for the ratepayers in the district that there should be an impartial investigation, so that there may be an assurance that the powers of local government are not being taken away from that locality for political motives.
The introduction of this Bill assumes that the West Ham Board of Guardians have failed. I say, as one of the public

representatives of that district, that they have not failed. The Minister has advanced no justification for his statement that they have failed. He has queried the purity of their administration in certain directions, but he has not made out his case that the guardians have failed. If our Amendment were carried a Select Committee would establish whether, in fact, the West Ham Board of Guardians have failed to carry out their duty or not. I hope the Minister will, on further reflection, accept this Amendment, because it will relieve him of the charge that we can now legitimately level against him that he is using political power, given to him for national purposes, in order to destroy the advantages that come from a Labour administration in a local area. I can conceive of no more retrograde step than the passing of this Bill. I should not welcome it if a Labour Minister of Health were to seek to over-ride the desires of any local community which in a constitutional and fair way had decided to have Conservative administration locally. Here we have a Conservative Government, with a majority obtained by very questionable tactics at the last General Election, using their powers to enforce their views upon a poor area like the West Ham Union, in the East End of London, whose difficulties have arisen because the Government will not discharge their social obligations to the poor. On top of that failure, this attempt to obtain Parliamentary powers to over-ride the efforts of these people to give themselves a measure of social justice is the most despicable use of power to which wealthy people can descend.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 229; Noes, 132.

Division No. 342.]
AYES
[7.20 p.m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Atkinson, C.
Bethel, A.


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Betterton, Henry B.


Albery, Irving James
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman


Alton, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W.Derby)
Balniel, Lord
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R. Skipton)


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Blundell, F. N.


Applin, Colonel R. V. K.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft


Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.


Atholl, Duchess of
Berry, Sir George
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.


Brass, Captain W.
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C.M.
Perring, Sir William George


Bridgegeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Ralne, W.


Briscoe, Richard George
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Ramsden, E.


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir. S. J. G.
Reid, D. D. (County Down)


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Remnant, Sir James


Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Rentoul, G. S.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley
Rice, Sir Frederick


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Ropner, Major L.


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.


Calne, Gordon Hall
Hurst, Gerald B.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Cassels,.J. D.
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Rye, F. G.


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Illffe, Sir Edward M.
Salmon, Major I.


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Faraham)


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Chapman, Sir S.
Jacob, A. E.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Sassoon, Sir Phillip Albert Gustave D.


Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Jephcott, A. R.
Savery, S. S.


Clarry, Reginald George
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Shepperson, E. W.


Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.
Knox, Sir Alfred
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Lamb, J. Q.
Sinclair, Col T. (Queen's, Univ., Belfast)


Conway, Sir W. Martin
Lane Fox, Col Rt. Hon. George R.
Skelton, A. N.


Cooper, A. Duff
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Slaney, Mahor P. Kenyon


Cooper, J. B.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Loder, J. de V.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Looker, Herbert William
Smithers, Waldron


Conliffe, Sir Herbert
Lord, Walter Greaves
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Lougher, L.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Lowe, Sir Francis William
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Dalkeith, Earl of
Lumley, L. R.
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)


Dalziel, Sir Davison
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Steel, Major Samuel Strang


Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Strickland, sir Gerald


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Davies, Dr. Vernon
Macintyre, Ian
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Dean, Arthur Wellesley
McLean, Major A.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Drewe, C.
Macmillan, Captain H.
Templeton, W. P.


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Elliot, Major Walter E.
Macquisten, F. A.
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchelf


Ellis, R. G.
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Elveden, Viscount
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Waddington, R.


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Wallace, Captain D. E.


Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Margesson, Captain D.
Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)


Everard, W. Lindsay
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Warrender, Sir Victor


Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Merriman, F. B.
Watts, Dr. T.


Fermoy, Lord
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Wells, S. R.


Fielden, E. B.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Wheler, Major Sir Granville, C.H.


Finburgh, S.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairympie


Forrest, W.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Gadle, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Williams, Com C. (Devon, Torquay)


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Sallsbury)
Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)


Ganzoni, Sir John
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Gates, Percy
Murchison, C.K.
Wise, Sir Fredric


Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Withers, John James


Grace, John
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Wolmer, Viscount


Grant, Sir J. A.
Newton, sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Womersley, W. J.


Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (ptrsf'ld.)
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)


Greene, W. P. Crawford
Nield, Rt. Hon. sir Herbert
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Grotrian, H. Brent
Nuttall, Ellis
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Gunston, Captain D. W.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Wragg, Herbert


Hammersley, S. S.
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Harland, A.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William



Harrison, G. J. C.
Pennefather, Sir John
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Hartington, Marquess of
Penny, Frederick George
Major Coped and Mr. F. C.


Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Thomson.


Hawke, John Anthony
Perkins, Colonel E. K.



NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Buchahan, G.
Davision, J. E. (Smethwick)


Ammon, Charles George
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Day, Colonel Harry


Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston
Cape, Thomas
Dennison, R.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Charleton, H. C.
Duncan, C.


Barr, J.
Cluse, W. S.
Dunnice, H.


Batey, Joseph
Compton, Joseph
Garro-Jones, Captain G.M.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Cove, W. G.
Gardner, J. P.


Briant, Frank
Crawfurd, H. E.
Gillett, George M.


Broad, F. A.
Dalton, Hugh
Gosling, Harry


Bromley, J.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)




Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)
Lee, F.
Snell, Harry


Greenall, T.
Lindley, F. W.
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Lowth, T.
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Grenfell, D. r. (Glamorgan)
Lunn, William
Stamford, T. W.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
MacLaren, Andrew
Stephen, Campbell


Groves, T.
March, S.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Grundy, T.W.
Montague, Frederick
Sutton, J. E.


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.
Morris, R. H.
Taylor, R. A.


Hall, F. (York, W. R. Normanton)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.
Thorne W. (West Ham, Plaistow


Hall G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil
Murnin, H.
Thurtle, E.


Hardle, George D.
Oliver, George Harold
Tinker, John Joseph


Harris, Percy A.
Palin, John Henry
Townend, A. E.


Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Paling, W.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.


Hayday, Arthur
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Varley, Frank B.


Hayes, John Henry
Ponsonby, Arthur
Viant, S. P.


Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Potts, John S.
Wallhead, Richard C.


Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Purcell, A. A.
Walsh, Rt. Hon., Stephen


Hirst, G. H.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Hore-Bellsha, Leslie
Riley, Ben
Webb, Rt. Hon, Sidney


Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield).
Ritson, J.
Welsh, J. C.


Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath
Sakiatvala, Shapurji
Westwood, J.


John, William (Rhondda, West)
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.


Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Scrymgeour, E.
Wiggins, William Martin


Jones, J.J. (West Ham, Silvertown
Scurr, John
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Williams, Dr. J.H. (Lianelly)


Kelly, W. T.
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Kennedy, T.
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Sitch, Charles H.
Windsor, Walter


Kenyon, Barnet
Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Wright, W.


Kirkwood, D.
Smillie, Robert
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Lansbury, George
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe



Lawrence, Susan
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Lawson, John James
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. A. Barnes

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 131; Noes, 230.

Division No.343.]
AYES
[7.28 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hardie, Geroge D.
Purcell, A. A.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro'
Harris, Percy A.
Rees, Sir Beddoe


Ammon, Charles George
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring


Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston
Hayday, Arthur
Riley, Ben


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hayes, John Henry
Ritson, J.


Barr, J.
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley
Saklatvala, Shapurji


Batey, Joseph
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Salter, Dr. Alfred


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Scrymgeour, E.


Briant, Frank
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South
Scurr, John


Broad, F. A.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Bromley, J.
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John


Buchanan, G.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Sitch, Charles H.


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Slesser, Sir Henry H.


Cape, Thomas
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown
Smillie, Robert


Charleton, H. C.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)


Cluse, W. S.
Kelly, W. T.
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)


Compton, Joseph
Kennedy, T.
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)


Cove, W. G.
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Snell, Harry


Crawfurd, H. E.
Kenyon, Barnet
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Dalton, Hugh
Kirkwood, D.
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale
Lansbury, George
Stamford, T. W.


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lawrence, Susan
Stephen, Campbell


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lawson, John James
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Day, Colonel Harry
Lee, F.
Sutton, J. E.


Dennison, R.
Lindley, F. W.
Taylor, R. A.


Duncan, C.
Livingstone, A. M.
Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plaistow)


Dunnico, H.
Lowth, T.
Thurtle, E.


Gardner, J. P.
Lunn, William
Tinker, John Joseph


Gillett, George M.
MacLaren, Andrew
Townend, A. E.


Gosling, Harry
March, S.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.


Graham,, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Montague, Frederick
Varley, Frank B.


Greenall, T
Morris, R. H.
Viant, S. P.


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Wallhead, Richard C.


Grenfell, D. r. (Glamorgan)
Murnin, H.
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool
Oliver, George Harold
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Groves, T.
Palin, John Henry
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Grundy, T. W.
Paling, W.
Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Welsh, J. C.


Hall, F. (York, W. R. Normanton)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Westwood, J.


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Potts, John S.
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.


Wiggins, William Martin
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Windsor. Walter
Mr. A. barnes and Mr. Charles


Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Wright, W.
Edwards.


Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)



NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Galbraith,.J. F. W.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Ganzonl, Sir John
Oman, Sir Charles William C.


Albery, Irving James
Gates, Percy
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Allen, J. Sendeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Gates, Major R. G. C.
Pennefather, Sir John


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Goff, Sir Park
Penny, Frederick George


Applln, Colonel R. V. K.
Grace, John
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.
Grant, Sir J. A.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Atholl, Duchess of
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Perring. Sir William George


Atkinson, C.
Greene, W. P. Crawford
Radford, E. A.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Grotrain, H. Brent
Raine, W.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Ramsden, E.


Balniel, Lord
Hammersley, S. S.
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Harland, A.
Reid, D. D. (County Down)


Barnston, Major Sir Harry
Harrison, G. J. C.
Remnant, Sir James


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-
Hartington, Marquess of 
Rentoul, G. S.


Berry, Sir George
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Bethel, A.
Hawke, John Anthony
Rice, Sir Fredrick


Betterton, Henry B.
Headdlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Ropner, Major L.


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Blundell, F. N.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Rye, F. G.


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Salmon, Major I.


Bowyer, Captain. G. E. W.
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Samuel, A. M.(Surrey, Farnham)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Brass, Captain W.
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hopkins, A. (Lancastere, Mossley)
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Briscoe, Richard George
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Savery, S. S.


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Hurst, Gerald B.
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Shepperson, E. W.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)
Simms. Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Jacob, A. E.
Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfst.)


Burton, Colonel H. W.
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Skelton, A.N.


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Jephcott, A. R,
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Calne, Gordon Hall
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dino, C.)


Cassels, J. D.
Kidd J. (Linlithgow)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Captain Henry Douglas
Smithers. Waldron


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Knox, Sir Alfred
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Chamberlain, Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Lamb,.J. Q.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Chapman, Sir S.
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Charterls, Brigadier-General J.
Locker-Lampson G. (Wood Green)
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)


Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Lodor,.J. de V.
Steel, Major Samuel Strang


Clarry, Reginald George
Looker, Herbert William
Storry-Deans, R.


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Lord, Walter Greaves.
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Lougher, L.
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Cockerill, Brigs General Sir G. K.
Lowe Sir Francis William
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips
Lumley, L. R.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Conway, Sir W Martin
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Templeton, W. P.


Cooper, A. Duff
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Couper J. B.
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Macintyre, Ian
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
McLean, Major A.
Tryon, Rt Hon. George Clement


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Macmillan, Captain H.
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Waddington, R.


Curzon, Captain Viscount
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Wallace, Captain D. E.


Dalkeith, Earl of
Macquisten, F. A.
Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)


Dalziel, Sir Davison
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Warrender, Sir Victor


Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) 
Maltland Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Watts, Dr. T.


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. 
Makins, Brigadler-General E.
Wells, S. R.


Davies, Dr. Vernon
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple


Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Margesson, Captain D.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Drewe, C.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Williams, Coin. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Merriman. F. B.
Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R.. Richm'd)


Edwards, J. Hung (Accrington)
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Elliot, Major Walter E.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Wise, Sir Fredric


Ellis, R. G.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Withers, John James


Elveden, Viscount
Monsell, Lyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Wolmer, Viscount


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Wornersley, W. J.


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)


Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Morrison- Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Everard, W. Lindsay
Murchison, C. K.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Wragg. Herbert


Fermoy, Lord
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Fielden, E. B.
Newton. Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)



Finsburgh, S.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Forrest,. W.
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Major Cope and Mr. F. C.


Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Nuttall, Ellis
Thomson.

Sir B. REES: I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, after the word "Where," to insert the words
at any time before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight.
It is obvious that the point of the Amendment is to limit the period of the operation of the Bill. In introducing the Bill, the Minister of Health told us that it was the intention of the Government to introduce next year a very comprehensive Bill dealing with the reform of the Poor Law. If that be so, there will be no necessity for this Bill after next year, and we think it would be a very useful thing indeed to limit the period of its operation to the 1st January, 1928. The Bill does not apply merely to West Ham. If it did, I would not have much to say about it, because the general consensus of opinion is that the West Ham case, so far as the Government are concerned, is completely made out, and I am in general sympathy with the Bill. I voted for the Second Reading on the understanding that it was intended to deal only with West Ham, and any other similar board of guardians which might act in the same way, but the scope of the Bill is very much greater than that, and the discussion has shown the purposes for which this Bill may be used.
In Italy, there is a similar power to replace a communal council by the appointment of a commission. It was only intended at the beginning to use it in one or two cases, but it has been growing and growing until the power is almost completely in the hands of the Commission. In this country there must come reform of the Poor Law and of the incidence of local rating, and all that, I understand, is going to be dealt with next year by the Government, but this Bill offers a very easy way out of a very difficult situation, which any Government might be tempted to use, and so shelve this comprehensive Bill that is promised for next year. Therefore, we think the Government, if they are really serious in their promises and intentions, ought to accept this Amendment. I see no reason at all, if they intend carrying out their proposals next year, why they should not say at once that they will limit the operation of this Bill to the 1st January, 1928, and if, for any purpose, they have
then been unable to carry their other legislation, they could ask Parliament to renew this Bill for a further period.

Mr. GILLETT: In rising to support the Amendment, I wish to say that I do so on the ground of limiting the period of operation of the Bill, because I feel that the whole foundation of the Bill is opposed to the fundamental principle that bases the whole of our political and municipal life, and that is that there should be no taxation without representation. Therefore, the sooner we can return to the normal state of affairs in regard to any of these guardians, the more satisfactory it will be. There is a second reason, and that is that the speech which the Parliamentary Secretary gave us just now modified the Bill, to my mind, to a very considerable extent. He told us that it does not apply unless, practically, a union is bankrupt. I understand that is the intention of the Bill, though I must say I thought the scope of it was larger than that. It seems to me that it is inequitable between different unions, and on that ground we ought to have the period shortened, because if we had one union that was doing exactly the same things in regard to what is termed corruption as the Minister has suggested is going on in West Ham, the Minister would have no power against that union so long as it was wealthy enough to go on paying its way. He only has power if a union is poor, and then, under this Bill, he can come in. In other words, it is going to be inequitable as between a wealthy union and a poor union on a question such as that upon which I understand, to a large extent, the Minister has based his reason for interfering in the affairs of West Ham.
My third reason is that the hon. Member who moved the Amendment pointed out that legislation was going to take place in regard to the Poor Law. There is no doubt that there is a great case for dealing with the whole problem of London government, and one of the things that seems to have been constantly overlooked in regard to West Clam's position is that West Ham should really be within London, and that it is West Ham's misfortune that it is not a part of the County of London. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman opposite is considering a Bill dealing with the
government of London. We are dealing with a position in London that is quite unique and quite different from that of any other great city, and West Ham happens, by an accident, to be outside the district that it ought to be inside. That is the root difficulty of West Ham. If West Ham had been in the County of London in the last 20 or 30 years, ever since the county was formed, its financial position to-day, quite apart from any question of policy, would have been very different. The Poplar Union has virtually, to a certain extent, escaped from its difficulties because it is in London, and although I know its debt is considerable, it is not in the same position as West Ham. [Interruption.] I understand from my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) that they owe nothing in Poplar.

Mr. LANSBURY: London owes it.

Mr. GILLETT: At any rate, the Poplar Union is better off simply because of the accident that it is in the County of London.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I am not clear how the hon. Gentlman links his argument with the limit of time.

Mr. GILLETT: I believe it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill to deal with London government. I want the time to be short, in the hope that by the time this limit has been reached the right hon. Gentleman will have introduced his Bill and the problem of West Ham will be alleviated. I do not know why West Ham is the only union mentioned, because the Bill is obviously concerned with other unions, but it does not seem to me to be fair that one union like West Ham is to be penalised while wealthier unions escape.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I must ask the hon. Member to keep to the Amendment.

Mr. GILLETT: I was only dealing with a question arising out of London government. My reason for supporting this Amendment is that I think the principle is vicious that you can take control of a local authority, and that the people who have to pay the taxes will have no say in how the money is expended.

Mr. MARCH: I desire to support the Amendment. I think the Minister should
accept it, because he has told us that this is only an emergency Bill until he brings in his larger Measure. This Bill may in time apply to other boards, and we may be in an awkward situation. I see the Minister smiling, and I know he is thinking of Poplar. We would not like to be out of it. We always like to be in trouble with the Minister because he is so genial when we go to meet him. The Bill in due course might apply to Poplar. The guardians are always defaulting when they do not carry out what the Minister wishes. He is a Mussolini in this matter. Although he has tried to lead the House to believe that he does not desire to fix the amounts that poor people are to receive, his only desire is to tell the boards of guardians that they must reduce the sums. These boards would not have been placed in their present position but for abnormal circumstances of unemployment and casual labour. When people come to the Minister to borrow money he says there must always be an alteration. It seems to me that the Minister and his supporters think that the longer people are on Poor Law relief the less they want, but it is the other way about; they want more.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I cannot see how the hon. Member connects this with the Amendment.

Mr. MARCH: It is connected with it on the question of time. The longer we delay in finding employment for people the longer we will have them on poor relief. They do not want to go there for the sake of going to the board of guardians, but because they want to exist.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is directing his argument against the whole Bill. He cannot discuss the whole Bill; he must keep to the Amendment.

Mr. MARCH: I will not get outside your rulings, but I want to say that, if this Bill is to go on, the worse it will be, and if we get an alteration of the Bill the better it will be.

Miss WILKINSON: One of the reasons why this Amendment should be inserted is that we are living in a time of abnormality. We are suffering from bad trade,
the effect of the War, and the effect of the financial policy of the Government. It is absolutely essential to consider a time limit in connection with this Bill. We have spoken entirely of the position of West Ham. I represent an area that has escaped the attention of the Minister so far, but he must admit it is one of the most necessitous areas in the country. With invincible optimism we regard this period as abnormal. We feel that if the Minister would only allow time for these economic conditions to work themselves out, there would be no need for this Bill. We cannot help feeling that Middlesbrough is likely to be one of the unions to receive the Minister's attention. We do not consider it is fair that the Bill should be rushed through in this way. We think the electors should have an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon it. The Parliamentary Secretary said it was necessary to rush it through, to deal with an emergency, but it is not as though this problem had happened yesterday. Why is there a necessity for this Bill? Why is this essential fabric of our Constitution, the fabric of local government, to be hurriedly torn up by the Minister because he wants to deal with this board of guardians? You cannot isolate West Ham from the other necessitous areas. You may pass panic legislation dealing with West Ham, and the Minister may find himself in an infinitely greater difficulty. Harassed members of boards of guardians who live in these districts and who find queues of people waiting for them in the morning may resolve to throw their responsibilities on the Minister and tell him to put in his representatives and see what sort of a mess they will make of it. We are really asking the Minister to look before he leaps into a dark chasm. We are told by the Minister that we are to have not merely this Bill dealing with local government in London, but that he is proposing an essential reform of the whole Poor Law. Surely it is putting the cart before the horse to deal with the problem in the particular way proposed by the Bill. Hard cases, as any lawyer will tell you, make bad law, and dealing with patchwork legislation in this panic fashion is only bringing the law into contempt. I think the Minister of Health sees the West Ham Guardians round his
bed at night, with caps in their hands, demanding more money, and he is passing this Bill to set his mind at rest. I do want to ask the Minister to take time and to give further consideration to this Bill, and not to have it rushed through in this way.

8.0 P.M.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member who has just sat down did not seem to distinguish clearly between the arguments for delaying the Bill and the arguments for bringing it in and passing it quickly. The hon. Member for South Bristol (Sir B. Rees), who moved this Amendment, alluded to something I said on the Second Reading with relation to the Measure for Poor Law reform which the Government had announced its intention of introducing next year. It is perfectly true that I pointed out that the effect of that would be to make this Bill a temporary Measure. This Bill deals with guardians, and when there are no longer any guardians there cannot be any reform of them. This ceases then to be a Bill ipso facto. It ceases to operate and expires. We are asked to name a date on which this Bill expires, and that seems to me not only unnecessary, but undesirable because it is not possible to say on what dates boards of guardians will cease to exist. Since that is so, naming a date in this Bill would expose us to the risk of a gap between the time this Bill comes to an end and the time when boards of guardians come to an end. I am afraid therefore that I cannot accept the Amendment. The hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett) spoke of no taxation without representation. That is just what we had in mind in connection with the case that has given rise to this Bill. West Ham is now spending a great deal more than it can extract from the rates. In order to obtain money it comes to the Ministry of Health to get a loan from the taxpayer and not the ratepayer, but the taxpayer has no control over that money. The basis of this Bill is that if the authority lends boards of guardians that money it is necessary that they should lay down conditions under which that money should be spent.

Mr. GILLETT: The argument of the right hon. Gentleman only applies pro-
vided that it is certain that West Ham will never repay the money.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the taxpayer is going to lend that money to someone else and that money is not properly secured, the taxpayer must take whatever powers he can to see that it is secured. It is not a question whether a union is poor, but whether a union is carrying on with the money of someone else. Hon. Members opposite do not like the Bill, but the particular Amendment before us was justified by the hon. Member who moved it, not on the ground that it was such a Bill that you should put some limit to the time it would operate, but that as there was to be a time limit it should be put down in the Bill. My answer is that we do not know what that time limit will be.

Mr. GREENWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman bases his argument on the fact that he cannot name the date now when the boards of guardians will come to an end. But he also assumes that at the end of 18 months, under the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Bristol (Sir B. Rees), the economic situation will be still so serious that there will be a substantial number of boards of guardians who cannot pay their way.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I did not say anything of the kind.

Mr. GREENWOOD: I am not saying that you did, but that you implied it. The right hon. Gentleman says he must have the powers in his hands until 1928, but he implies that boards of guardians will not be able to pay their way at that time. Indeed, it is a certainty in his mind. I suggest that if the Government's intentions with regard to unemployment policy are going to leave this country 18 months from now in such a state as we are in to-day they might keep their Bill as long as they like. This at least is a confession of the Government's incompetence to deal with this big problem. The right hon. Gentleman says he is not at all certain that boards of guardians might by that time have ceased to exist. I would like to be quite sure that there is no intention on the part of the Government to carry these proposals forward under the new Measure. On this side of
the Committee we do not look on this Amendment with any enthusiasm. We are going to support it, although we are running the risk of being misrepresented as accepting the view that this Measure ought to last 18 months. It is an attempt to destroy local government, and it should be at least limited in its time. I hope other hon. Members will be willing to recognise the very reasonable nature of this Amendment, moved by an hon. Member who supported the Bill on the Second Reading and believes that the Measure ought to be strictly limited in its duration.

Mr. GROVES: I was specially interested in the right hon. Gentleman's references to West Ham's incapacity to meet its obligations with regard to Poor Law. I do want to say that the reason that we cannot meet these obligations is because the unemployment problem is out of all proportion to the generally accepted view of destitution. We are now levying a rate of 10s. in the £ only for Poor Law purposes. It is true that we as a Poor Law union could not stand an additional strain in that direction. I conclude by impressing on the Minister that the burden in our area is shouldered by the union, whereas it ought to be shouldered by the country. We are bearing a national responsibility on our shoulders and are coming to the Minister for a loan. There you have it in a nutshell. I shall support the Amendment, but I just wanted to emphasise this point, that with regard to West Ham we are where we are because of the industrial conditions of the country. We did what we could to solve the burden following the great problem of unemployment. We ought to get from the Minister a greater degree of, shall I say, compassion.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: How many millions worth?

Mr. GROVES: We only ask for money in proportion to the volume of the obligations imposed on us. We have accepted that burden whether it was right or wrong. Having accepted the burden and realised that its demands are greater than the shoulders of the locality can bear, we cannot go anywhere else than to the national representative, that is to say, the Minister of Health. Following the observations he made in his speech,
I want to say that we in West Ham are where we are because of the national obligations we have accepted.

Miss LAWRENCE: I want to thank the Minister for his most illuminating speech. It has thrown a flood of light on a subject that was very much obscured. In his speech on Monday he began by saying that this was a mere temporary stop-gap Measure, and that, in view of the fact that the Government had announced its intention next year to introduce a general Measure of reform of the Poor Law system by which boards of guardians would be abolished, and their functions transferred to other bodies, he had hoped it might be possible to carry on without any legislation of this character, until that larger Measure could be introduced, but that the action of the board of guardians of West Ham had left him no choice.
Then he concentrated his attention on West Ham. Three-quarters of his speech was on West Ham, and he said that the Bill would not have been introduced if it had not been for West Ham. This question of law reform has been in the air ever since 1909, and successive Governments have promised Measures. Some of us felt very happy and encouraged, but when it comes to saving, "Put into your Bill what you put into your speech," it is quite a different matter. We have been told that 1928 is about the date when we might expect any serious legislation in regard to the Poor Law, but, being too busy to introduce the Poor Law Bill and to return the Poor Law, the right hon. Gentleman proceeds with this emergency Measure. The right hon. Gentleman took the high constitutional ground that in the case of West Ham the money comes from the Government, and therefore the Government ought to have control. I come back to the list, of boards of guardians which were read out to the House, and every one of them will come under the "sound, constitutional doctrine" which the Minister of Health has enunciated. Every one of those boards in that long list have borrowed money, and the Minister's speech clearly foreshadows that he intends dealing with every one in that list exactly as he proposes to deal with West Ham.
The Minister has admitted what I put to the Committee before that this is a general Bill to deal with the general principle of the Poor Law, and to bring these other boards down to the scale which the Minister of Health wishes to see imposed. Somebody will have to make the precepts, and the persons who will make them will be officials paid and appointed from Whitehall. The Minister of Health has told the Committee that this Bill is necessary in order that sound principles of democracy should prevail, but why should poor West Ham be made the scapgoat for everybody else? I think we are now standing at the beginning of the bankruptcy of local government, and when the Minister of Health insists that powers like these should be made permanent and not temporary and should go on until the Government find it possible to introduce a reform of the Poor Law then the situation is very bad indeed.

Sir B. REES: This Measure deals with one of the fundamental principles of local government, and my contention is that if you are taking such extreme powers as those contained in this Bill it should only be done for a limited period. I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he will meet us if we agree to a compromise and accept a period of 18 months.

Mr. LANSBURY: I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that his Department has already gone to the Poplar Board not upon the question of a loan but in regard to the question of raising the loan on the proceeds that come from the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund, and they have in fact been told that the borrowing powers which they have enjoyed they are not now going to enjoy, and that the Minister of Health intends to impose certain restrictions on the scales of allowances. Our board of guardians has met to-day to agree to a reduction of £20,000 and this had to be done before the Minister would allow them to borrow money, which I contend they are entitled to borrow in anticipation of what they will receive from the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund.
The board cannot claim more than they are entitled to under the scale laid down by this House as to what shall be charged on that fund. I want to know if that is consistent with the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the reason why he must pull them up is because they are
not paying back their loans, and he thinks they have gone so far that any further loans would be unsafe. I am not putting these points for the purpose of obstruction, and I will try to put them more scientifically. The reason the right hon. Gentleman has interfered with West Ham is because he considers the repayment is unsafe and he must take care of the taxpayers' money. I wish to point out that before this Bill has become law someone in his Department has informed the Poplar Board that in future the Minister of Health does not intend to do what he has done before, that is to allow them to borrow on the security of London what the Act of Parliament has prescribed that they can do.

Mr. BUCHANAN: I am not surprised at the attitude of the Minister in regard to this Amendment. It is very clear that he does not want any time limit. If the right hon. Gentleman thought that next year a Poor Law Bill was going to be passed, of course he would accept this Amendment. It is quite clear that the right hon. Gentleman realises that "there's many a slip' twist cup and lip," and he is afraid that the Bill which has been announced might not be passed, and so he wants to retain this Bill for as long a period as he possibly can. The Government may be changed or modified, or there may be such a run of events that the right hon. Gentleman's Government may even not find time for a Measure dealing with the Poor Law. Therefore, what he wants is that this Bill may remain on the Statute Book for as long as he is likely to need it. This is part of a deliberate campaign and policy to

save the money of the wealthy at the expense of the poor. There is no use compromising on time; it is a sheer question of a deliberate policy in the East End of London to club the poorest of the poor, and, if the Minister is allowed to do so, he intends to develop that policy also in Birmingham and in Glasgow. It is no use appealing to him for social justice or social equity; he intends to carry out this policy in a brutal and hard-hearted fashion.

Sir B. REES: May I ask for a reply to my question?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I can only reply to the hon. Member that I see no necessity far putting in a time limit, and, as I have already pointed out, I do not desire to have a gap, the effect of which might possibly be that the powers given to the present Government might be denied to its successors. I do not know why hon. Members opposite desire to commit themselves to a course which might have that effect. It appears to me that, as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out in the Debate on the Second Reading, if this Government were to be given these powers, their successors at least should have them.

Mr. MARCH: We had an idea that, if the right hon. Gentleman accepted a limit of time, he would get on with his Bill a little quicker.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 114 Noes, 177.

Division No. 344.]
AYES.
[8.29 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Duncan, C.
John, William (Rhondda, West)


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Dunnico, H.
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)


Ammon, Charles George
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Gardner, J. P.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)


Barnes, A.
Gillett, George M.
Kelly, W. T.


Barr, J.
Gosling, Harry
Kennedy, T.


Batey, Joseph
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Kirkwood, D.


Broad, F. A.
Greenall, T.
Lansbury, George


Bromley, J.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Lawrence, Susan


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Lindley, F. W.


Buchanan, G.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Lowth, T.


Cape, Thomas
Groves, T.
Lunn, William


Charleton, H. C.
Grundy, T. W.
MacLaren, Andrew


Cluse, W. S.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
March, S.


Compton, Joseph
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Montague, Frederick


Cove, W. G.
Hardie, George D.
Morris, R. H.


Crawfurd, H. E.
Hayday, Arthur
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)


Dalton, Hugh
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Murnin, H.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Hirst, G. H.
Oliver, George Harold


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Palin, John Henry


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Paling, W.


Day, Colonel Harry
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.


Dennison, R.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Potts, John S.


Purcell, A. A.
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Rees, Sir Beddoe
Snell, Harry
Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney


Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Welsh, J. C.


Riley, Ben
Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Westwood, J.


Ritson, J.
Stamford, T. W.
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.


Saklatvala, Shapurji
Stephen, Campbell
Wiggins, William Martin


Salter, Dr. Alfred
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Scrymgeour, E.
Sutton, J. E.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Scurr, John
Taylor, R. A.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Tinker, John Joseph
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Townend, A. E.
Windsor, Walter


Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Wright, W.


Sitch, Charles H.
Varley, Frank B.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Smillie, Robert
Wallhead, Richard C.



Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Mr. Hayes and Mr. T. Henderson.


NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Grant, Sir J. A.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Greene, W. P. Crawford
Perring, Sir William George


Allen, J. Sendeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Radford, E. A.


Atholl, Duchess of
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Atkinson, C.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Reid, D. D. (County Down)


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Hammersley, S. S.
Ramer, J. R.


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Harland, A.
Remnant, Sir James


Berry, Sir George
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Bethel, A.
Hawke, John Anthony
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)


Betterton, Henry B.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Ropner, Major L.


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Holland, Sir Arthur
Rye, F. G.


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Salmon, Major I.


Brass, Captain W.
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Samuel, Samuel (W'deworth, Putney)


Briscoe, Richard George
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Sanderson, Sir Frank


Brittain, Sir Harry
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Savory, S. S.


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Hurd, Percy A.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Buckingham, Sir H.
Hurst, Gerald B.
Shepperson, E. W.


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Simms. Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Unlv., Belfst.)


Cassels, J. D.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kine'dine, C.)


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Jephcott, A. R.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Chapman, Sir S.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Smithers, Waldron


Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
Kidd J. (Linlithgow)
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Clarry, Reginald George
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Steel, Major Samuel Strang


Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips
Lamb, J. O.
Storry-Deans, R.


Cope, Major William
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Couper, J. B.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Courtauld, Major J. S.
Loder, J. de V.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Looker, Herbert William
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Lord, Walter Greaves.
Templeton, W. P.


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Dalziel, Sir Davison
Macintyre, Ian
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Macmillan, Captain H.
Thornton, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Davies, Dr. Vernon
Macquisten, F. A.
Tryon, Rt Hon. George Clement


Dean, Arthur Wellesley
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Drewe, C.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Waddington, R.


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)


Edwards, John H. (Accrington)
Margesson, Captain D.
Warrender, Sir Victor


Elliot, Major Walter E.
Merriman, F. B.
Watts, Dr. T.


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Wells, S. R.


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple


Leotard, W. Lindsay
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Fielden, E. B.
Murchison, C. K.
Wise, Sir Fredric


Finburgh, S.
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Withers, John James


Forrest, W.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Womersley, W. J.


Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Ganzonl, Sir John
Nuttall, Ellis
Wragg, Herbert


Gates, Percy
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Goff, Sir Park
Oman, Sir Charles William C.



Gower, Sir Robert
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Grace, John
Penny, Frederick George
Captain Viscount Curzon and Lord Stanley.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: I beg to move, in page 1, line 8, after the word "union," to insert the words
(a) have persistently failed to grant adequate relief to destitute persons; or.
In my opinion, this is one of the most important Amendments on the Order Paper, because if you analyse the Bill from top to bottom there is only one object that the Minister has in view, and that is to penalise democratically appointed boards of guardians for granting too much relief to destitute people. The object of the Amendment is to give additional powers to the Ministers also to penalise boards of guardians who do not pay adequate relief. I come from a constituency where we have boards of guardians who look at the question of the destitute people from a very inhuman standpoint. The district I represent is linked up with the Abergavenny Board of Guardians. The mines and steel works in that district have only worked about 18 months since 1921. Therefore, seeing that the village is dependent entirely upon the steel works and the five mines in the district, the misery and poverty are indescribable. These people, therefore, have to appeal to the Abergavenny Board of Guardians, on which there are large number of Tories quite as reactionary as the present Tory Government. They pay a maximum of 32s. per week. It does not matter whether you have one child or six, the maximum is 32s. They even do worse than that. During the present lock-out the miners have been compelled to apply for parish relief. If a miner receives 5s. from his federation or from a public charity, that is taken into consideration in granting the relief. If the Minister paid more attention to boards of guardians who pay inadequate sums than he does to West Ham, he would be doing far more justice to these poor destitute people. I took this matter up with the Parliamentary Secretary. He was very kind and courteous, and he made his investigation, and this is the reply I received:
As regards paragraph 2, it is their duty to take into account any payment of strike pay or other means of subsistence which are available, whatever may be there source.
We say that is very unjust and unfair, and we are therefore proposing this Amendment so that the Minister will have the power to deal with these recalcitrant guardians in exactly the same way as he proposes to deal with the West
Ham Guardians. Very shortly we shall be on that side of the House, and we want to put the contents of this Amendment into operation. We will not spend as much time with West Ham as we will with the people who do not pay adequate relief. I hope the Minister will accept the Amendment from the standpoint of fair play and will give us the chance of dealing with these people who refuse to pay adequately. I do not believe I am asking too much if we ask that these people who are destitute should be sufficiently fed, adequately clothed and properly housed. Even under the relief given by the Abergavenny Guardians nothing is given towards rent or clothes. We are very dissatisfied with the action of the Minister in dealing with guardians who treat applicants for relief in such a mean way. These men are in queues, not only at the Employment Exchange but at the office of the board of guardians. Although they are the real wealth producers of the country, they are appealing for something to keep body and soul together. Last Saturday in the "Daily Mirror" there was a picture of queues in London waiting for a prospectus, with a view to investing £2,000,000. In my district we have a queue of the real wealth producers of the country, seeking for something with which to feed the hungry folks at home, while in London we have a queue of those who live on wealth looking for a prospectus in order to invest their money. I appeal to the right, hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment, so that we shall be able to deal with these people—
Whereupon the GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK Ron being come with a Message, the Chairman left the Chair.
Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.

Orders of the Day — ROYAL ASSENT.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I want to move, "That Black Rod be not entertained here this evening," owing to an abuse of power in another place.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners;
The House went; and, having returned,
Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

1. Criminal Appeal (Scotland) Act, 1926.
2363
2. Execution of Diligence (Scotland) Act, 1926.
3. Coal Mines Act, 1926.
4. Glasgow Education Authority (Juvenile Delinquency) Order Confirmation Act, 1926.
5. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Ilfracombe) Act, 1926.
6. Abertillery and District Water Board Act, 1926.
7. Connah's Quay Urban District Council Water Act, 1926.

Orders of the Day — BOARDS OF GUARDIANS (DEFAULT) BILL.

Again considered in Committeee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Mr. T. GRIFFITHS: As I was about to say—

Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman. I want to know whether it is in order now to raise a question in regard to a considerable disturbance which took place in another place just now?

The CHAIRMAN: It is not in order.

Captain WALTER SHAW: Is it in order, Mr. Chairman, for an hon. Member to raise a question on the Motion which was made that Black Rod should not be admitted?

The CHAIRMAN: It is not in order in Committee on this Bill.

Mr. KIRKWOOD: I want to raise another point of Order. When Black Rod is coming here and is announced, and when it is moved that he be not admitted, is there nothing that can be done—

The CHAIRMAN: That question does not arise here. When the usual information of Black Rod's approach is given by the Sergeant-at-Arms, it is the duty of the Chairman to vacate the Chair for Mr. Speaker, and until Mr. Speaker again leaves the Chair, the Chairman has nothing to do with the proceedings.

Mr. KIRKWOOD: I would move then that you vacate the Chair now—

The CHAIRMAN: That is not in order. Mr. Griffiths.

Mr. KIRKWOOD: I will move then that the Sitting be adjourned, in order that—

The CHAIRMAN: That is a Motion I cannot accept.

Mr. KIRKWOOD: I have it on the highest authority that it is the correct procedure to move that you vacate the Chair, in order that Mr. Speaker—

The CHAIRMAN: No, it is not in order. When Black Rod gives a summons to this House to go to the House of Peers, the Chairman of the Committee on a Bill has no duty in regard to that except to vacate the Chair, and make room for Mr. Speaker. Therefore, no point of Order can arise. Mr. Griffiths.

9.0 P.M.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: This Amendment which I am moving will enable the Government to deal as drastically with boards of guardians which are not progressive as the Bill now enables the Minister of Health to deal with boards of guardians which are progressive.

Mr. J. HUDSON: On a point of Order. Is it in order for the proceedings of this Committee to continue without interruption when one hon. Member of this House has violently assaulted another hon. Member during the progress of hon. Members to the House of Lords?

The CHAIRMAN: It is perfectly in order; otherwise anyone who wishes to suspend the proceedings of the Committee would proceed to assault another hon. Member.

Mr. KIRKWOOD: That is an incitement to violence on your part. You should never have put that into anybody's head.

The CHAIRMAN: Mr. Griffiths.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: rose—

Mr. BROMLEY: May I ask for your guidance, Sir. Do I correctly understand your ruling on the point just raised by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. J. Hudson), that it is in order for any hon. Member of this House violently to assault another hon. Member?

The CHAIRMAN: What I said was that if an assault was committed by one hon. Member on another, there is no reason why we should not go on with our business.

Mr. HUDSON: On that point of Order—

The CHAIRMAN: I have given my ruling.

Mr. HUDSON: On a further point of Order, Mr. Hope. The question I desire to put is this: Considering that a violent assault has been made by one Member upon another—[HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"]—the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Roy Bird) upon the hon. Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Gardner)—can I move, "That the Chairman do Report Progress, and ask leave to sit again"?

The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid I cannot accept that Motion. Mr. Griffiths. [Interruption.]

Mr. GRIFFITHS: rose—

Mr. PALING: May I ask whether, in view of the unprecedented character of what has just happened, and in view of the ruling you have given, you can give us any advice as to the best method of bringing this question up for discussion?

The CHAIRMAN: My business is to conduct the proceedings here, and not to take any cognisance of what happens outside. Mr. Griffiths.

Mr. KIRKWOOD: It is another indication of how generous we are. [Interruption.]

Mr. GRIFFITHS: In putting forward this matter—

Sir W. LANE MITCHELL: On a point of Order—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down!" "Chinese ham!" "Ching-Ching!" and Interruption.]

Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAM: On a point of Order. May I ask whether you cannot give us any advice on this matter? Might I ask whether it would be possible for the Leader of the Government or some other right hon. Gentleman to give us some indication of their view of this matter?

The CHAIRMAN: It would be quite out of Order for any Minister to do so.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: I have been trying to deal with the situation during a time of partial employment—between 1921 and the present year. If you analyse the present Bill, you will see that its object is to penalise and also to discharge democratically-elected guardians because they have paid out too much money in the relief of destitute people. The object of the Amendment is to give additional powers to the Minister to discharge reactionary guardians who refuse to pay adequate relief.
Referring to Blaeravon and the Abergavenny Board of Guardians, may I say that in the district the workmen themselves, without asking the employers to contribute to the unemployed, themselves contributed £ 41,000, and so saved the rates, which would have been called upon to contribute that money to those in need. There was a list read out by the hon. Member for East Ham which really astonished everybody who was in the House, and heard it. I trust now, after what I have said to the Minister, in reference to the Abergavenny Board of Guardians, which has the lowest amount of relief in the whole country, that he will accept the Amendment, so that those who are destitute in the district may have justice done to them.

Mr. GROVES: I beg to support the Amendment. I have much pleasure in doing so. As the House knows, we desire to insert words which will allow of adequate relief to destitute persons. We want the Minister to take action against unions that persistently refuse to grant adequate relief to destitute persons. Apparently, from what we have heard, there are, perhaps, 40 boards of guardians who have been in default in their duty of relieving destitution. They have spent the amount of money they have got from the rates and have been compelled to get on their knees to the Minister of Health in order to carry on their work. We find the Minister taking action against the West Ham Guardians because they have been giving what some think is adequate relief in cases of destitution. But that is the reason we are moving the Amendment. Hon. Members know that in the post-War condition under which the industrial areas
have been, those concerned have been inundated with applications from able-bodied men who before the War were working people, men who in our boroughs contributed to develop the wealth and greatness of our country. I think it is as well to realise, after all is said and done, how the matter stands. Those who work in West Ham, that great East End area, have contributed largely to the wealth and development of the country.

The CHAIRMAN: The Amendment before the Committee relates to boards of guardians who have failed in their duty to grant relief to destitute persons, and the hon. Member's argument about the West Ham Board of Guardians does not seem to apply to that case.

Mr. GROVES: I was only giving it as a comparison. West Ham has been accused of granting adequate relief, and I have been pointing out the amount of relief paid in West Ham compared with the amount paid elsewhere. I was showing the difference there is between sense and the lack of sense, in order to give the Committee an opportunity of realising which side is right. I always try to obey the Chair, whoever is in it, but I think that right and wrong, adequacy and inadequacy, are relative terms, and you cannot understand what is adequate without discussing what is inadequate.

The CHAIRMAN: If West Ham Guardians fail in their duty to grant adequate relief to destitute persons, they will come under this Amendment. The Mover of the Amendment referred to unions which had so failed in their duty, and that was in rrder.

Mr. GROVES: I will endeavour to keep in order. We are protesting against the attempt of the Minister to put West Ham into the position of having to give inadequate relief.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member can do that on Second or Third Reading, and perhaps on some of these Amendments, but not on this particular Amendment.

Mr. GROVES: I shall not get a chance on the Third Reading, and I did not get a chance on the Second Reading, but I will not take an undue chance on this Amendment. I am willing to address my
remarks to the condemnation of those boards of guardians which do not grant adequate relief, and I am sure that if the people in those areas are as poor and have been out of work as long, as the people in West Ham, the attention of the Minister should be drawn to the fact that in this Kingdom there are Poor Law unions not so attentive to their duty as the Poor Law union with which I am associated. I was very interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Griffiths) who mentioned certain Poor Law areas where the total amount of relief granted for a whole family was about 30s. a week. We can only speak from experience and our experience in West Ham was that when we granted a maximum of 45s. a week, to keep a man, wife and family, where there was about 5s., 10s. or 12s. a week of rent to be paid—humorous as it may appear, and out of order as it may be, experience proved that this was not adequate.

The CHAIRMAN: I must ask the hon. Member not to trifle with the Committee.

Mr. GROVES: I do not wish to trifle with the Committee. I am merely trying to adapt myself to the degree of mirth which seems to prevail in the Committee, and I am also trying to fit in arguments which are sensible and true and are very serious in the circumstances of the moment. I do not want to be the victim of the general mirth. I only want to point out that there are Poor Law unions which are not paying a scale of relief that can be considered adequate. The Minister by accepting this Amendment, ought to make use of his powers under this Bill to compel guardians who are proved guilty of neglecting their duties, to apply themselves to the needs of the poor and grant adequate relief.

Mr. MONTAGUE: May I ask you, Sir, whether it is in order upon this Amendment to discuss what is adequate relief?

The CHAIRMAN: Yes, it is.

Mr. GROVES: Then why did you interrupt me?

Sir K. WOOD: rose—

Miss WILKINSON: On a point of Order. When only two speeches have been made on an Amendment of this
character, is it in order for the Government representative to reply before certain other points of criticism can be raised to which a reply is required. The custom is growing of replying at once from the Government Front Bench, and then other speakers make criticisms to which no reply at all is given.

The CHAIRMAN: He can answer when he likes.

Sir K. WOOD: I rise to reply to the two hon. Gentlemen who have just spoken and if any further points are raised which deserve a reply that reply will be given later. [Interruption.] I am sure hon. Members would not wish for a reply on points which do not deserve a reply. The point made by the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Griffiths) and the point, which is, I understand, his ground for moving the Amendment, is that in the particular area with which he is associated, the board of guardians took into account the fact that some people who applied for relief and who were concerned in the present industrial dispute, had various sources of income and deductions were made on that ground. This Amendment in no way interferes with the position in that respect. The board of guardians there, just as the boards of guardians in other parts of the country, must have regard, under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, to any income of which the applicant for relief may be in receipt. Therefore, the object of the Mover is not met by the Amendment. The suggestion which is now being made is, as will be appreciated by hon. Gentlemen opposite, exactly contrary to all the arguments which have been used in the course of this Debate. Hon. Members opposite have put it to the Committee several times that boards of guardians ought to be given their own discretion, that there ought to be no interference with them, that they are elected bodies, and that no Minister ought to intervene in any way. Now, it is suggested that in the particular circumstances indicated by the Mover, there should be intervention. So far as the circumstances mentioned are concerned, if it were a case simply of the legal effects of the Merthyr Tydvil judgment—

Mr. WALLHEAD: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Merthyr Tydvil judgment rests on a High Court decision
or on a decision of the House of Lords, and whether it is absolutely binding upon his Department?

Sir K. WOOD: Yes, Sir; it is binding on the Department and on boards of guardians generally.

Mr. WALLHEAD: Where was it given?

Sir K. WOOD: I do not know whether it was in the House of Lords or the Court of Appeal.

Mr. J. JONES: You ought to know.

Sir K. WOOD: The general effect of a decision in any Court, against which no appeal was lodged, is binding at the present time. No hon. Member would suggest that the Merthyr Tydvil judgment is not binding. It certainly is binding. I believe it was given by the Court of Appeal, but the fact that it did not go to the House of Lords would not be a reason why it is not binding upon every board of guardians and upon my Department.

Miss WILKINSON: If a judgment is given by the Court of Appeal in a certain case, does that judgment stand whatever Acts of Parliament may be passed?

Sir K. WOOD: The hon. Member is quite right there. If we brought in an Act of Parliament to reverse or vary the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, and had it passed by both Houses, of course that judgment would he varied or upset by whatever this and the other House did, but as it is the judgment remains.

Mr. J. JONES: On a point of Order. It is a well-known fact that these other boards of guardians against whom these judgments are given are not in a position to pursue cases to the higher Courts because they are under the authority of the gentlemen who are now making the excuses. We cannot go to law without their permission when we have exceeded the money they are prepared to lend us. Now they are making the Merthyr Tydvil judgment not a reason but an excuse.

The CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of Order, but if the hon. Member likes to give way—

Sir K. WOOD: I am always desirous of answering such questions as I can. I do not think the hon. Member is right in
suggesting that my Department has prevented the boards of guardians taking any case they desire to any Court in the country. The Merthyr Tydvil judgment has been a matter of discussion for some time, and as far as I am aware no board of guardians or body connected with questions of that kind has sought to dispute that judgment in Court.

Mr. JONES: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but the Merthyr Tydvil Board of Guardians is just one of the authorities that is in the financial cart, as West Ham is.

The CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of Order.

Mr. JONES: It is a point of Order. It is a point of Order on the matter of the judgment. It is, absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN: rose—

Mr. JONES: rose

HON. MEMBERS: Order, order!

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must not interrupt. If the Parliamentary Secretary has concluded his reply for the moment, he may do so, but it is not a point of Order.

Sir K. WOOD: I still say that variation of the Merthyr Tydvil judgment will not be at all advanced by the Amendment which has been proposed. The Merthyr Tydvil judgment will remain, and this particular Amendment has no bearing upon it. My second point is that the argument addressed by hon. Members opposite that you must not interfere with the Poor Law guardians must apply equally to the proposals they have been making at the present time. Finally, I want to say this. As far as this Bill is concerned my Department has seen no necessity for an Amendment of this kind and therefore I cannot ask the Committee to accept it to-night.

Mr. GREENWOOD: Our view is that where a board of guardians is not carrying out its statutory duties, it is not asking for anything which is unusual to ask that there should be some machinery for enforcing the duty upon the guardians. When the right hon. Gentleman referred to certain Bills that have been introduced by the Labour party as precedents for his action, he failed to
realise that in those cases we were not going to supersede local authorities, but were mainly proposing steps whereby the State should, in default of local authorities carrying out their duties, carry these duties out on behalf of the local authorities. This Bill is quite another thing. It smacks of a repressive movement against boards of guardians who, perhaps, may be generous. If this Bill is to be robbed of a certain class consciousness which is obvious in the argument which has been used from the other side, it will be perfectly fair to say, if a board of guardians through excessive generosity, cannot make ends meet, it is to be superseded, so also you will supersede the local authority that does not carry out its special duties. Surely that is not an illogical attitude for us to take? The hon. Gentleman says that, as far as he knows, boards of guardians are carrying out their duties in a satisfactory way, and there is no need for an Amendment of this kind. Not in his opinion, but we should be the first to argue that the Minister of Health will never lift his finger to ensure that boards of guardians give adequate relief, but is always willing, and, indeed, anxious, to prevent any local authorities from becoming more generous than he would desire them to be. It seems to us only fair that, if the Minister is going to take those enormous powers into his hands, he ought at least to use those powers for the fuller enforcement of the law as well as against those people who have, perhaps, been too enthusiastic in carrying out their duty. Therefore, with a view to giving this Bill balance and making it a fair Bill, which will tell against all local authorities who exceed their duties or do not carry out their duties, an Amendment of this kind should find its place in the Bill. Although I have not lost hope of it, I trust that the Government will see their way to meet what is a very modest Amendment and which will give the Bill a fairness which at the present time it does not possess. As the Bill stands now, it shows that the Government are not concerned with the well-being of the poor, but that they are only concerned with the reduction of expenditure, and it would get rid of that feeling we all on these benches have about this Bill that it is intended as a repressive Measure.

Miss WILKINSON: In supporting this Amendment, may I point out to the Minister how difficult it is on a matter of this kind, which is very real and substantial, if, after a couple of speeches, the Minister gets up and indicates the attitude of the Government which leaves those of us who wish to raise points in the position of feeling that the whole of the Debate has become unreal. I want to urge upon the Minister that whatever his views about the rest of the Bill, this is an Amendment which might very well be accepted by the Government. If the Government realised the feeling there is in the country that this Bill has been dictated by political bias against political opponents, they would welcome this Amendment as showing the country that they wish to act impartially wherever guardians are failing in their duty, either by giving excessive relief or by giving inadequate relief. I know the Minister will say that if a board of guardians are giving inadequate relief, or even have persistently failed to grant relief at all, that, at any rate, keeps them within their financial competence, and that he has no concern with them; but we ought to consider not merely the finances of boards of guardians, but also the position of the people asking for relief. That may be a novel point of view to urge on the present Government, but it is necessary for us on these benches to call attention to the fact that guardians are supposed to give adequate relief, and that if they do not that they are failing in their duty, and that if they persistently refuse to carry out their duty a Bill of this kind would be a very useful weapon in the hands of the Minister.
There are boards of guardians in this country—a growing number—who are refusing to give any out-relief at all to single women or to middle-aged women, offering them only "the house." This is a very serious matter, especially for young women, because it means, practically a sentence for life. The Minister shakes his head, but what is the position of these young women who, as is so often the case now, are refused unemployment pay and go to the guardians? In hundreds of cases they are told they cannot have outdoor relief but must go into the workhouse. The woman goes there with her box, or perhaps she has sold her box with her clothes in it, or, perhaps,
again, as in some pathetic cases I know, the box is held by the landlady as security for rent. When she goes into the workhouse—if she goes into the workhouse not as a casual but into the workhouse itself—she cannot get out unless she obtains her discharge on some chance of getting work. In the workhouse she is robbed of all initiative and robbed of the means of getting out and getting help. Many of the guardians take her in to use her as an unpaid servant, and that is the end of it. This is a serious matter, also, for many middle-aged women who cannot get unemployment pay, although they have paid their contributions for years. They have been given their standard benefit and when that is finished they are turned off, and there is literally nothing for them. In cases where boards of guardians persistently refuge to grant outdoor relief or, as in some cases, will grant no relief at all, the Minister ought to take very stringent action.
There are boards of guardians also which make almost impossible demands on those who come before them. Some action is needed there. They actually tell the people who come for relief that they must sell their furniture before they can be granted any outdoor relief. Then there are boards of guardians which cut down relief to the very last point. There again the Minister ought to be able to take action. Again there are guardians of the type who are concerned in deterring people from coming. Women have told me they would rather go to prison than go before a board of guardians, so insulting are the questions asked them, and so complete is the questionnaire they have to face. I know the Minister will say that these are not questions which concern him, that this is purely a financial Bill concerned with dealing with one type of emergency. If the Minister does say that and refuses to accept this Amendment, he justifies all that we on this side of the House have said about its being a political Bill, about his being concerned with dealing with his political opponents and not concerned in seeing that guardians do their duty efficiently, only concerning himself with reducing relief to the very smallest possible amount.

Major CRAWFURD: I think the question raised by the Amendment is a simple one, and perhaps the right hon. Gentle-
man or his colleague, if they think fit to answer any of the questions so far raised will give an answer to me. The hon. Member for Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) in replying to the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment, relied largely upon what he asserted to be an inconsistency between their attitude now and at a previous period of the afternoon. I do not know whether it was in his surprise over that that he forgot to answer the question raised. The action taken by the Minister with regard to a certain notorious case which is not to be mentioned in discussing this Amendment is, I understand, that he will not advance further sums of money except under conditions which, in effect, lay down a maximum standard of relief. The question I would like to ask is, "Is there any statutory or administrative rule which lays down the minimum standard of relief?" If there be, surely a provision ought to be put into this Bill to deal with the guardians who fail to reach the minimum as we propose to deal with those who exceed the maximum. That seems to be the simple point raised by this Amendment.

Miss LAWRENCE: The Parliamentary Secretary made a statement which filled me with perplexity. I understood him to say that, under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, all sources of income must be taken into account. Did I hear that aright?

Sir K. WOOD: indicated assent.

Miss LAWRENCE: Under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment all sources of income are to be taken into account. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is the general law!"] Oh, that is the general law of the country! That is quite different. I understood the hon. Member to invoke the help of the Merthyr Tydvil judgment on that point. The Merthyr Tydvil case had nothing whatever to do with the point, nothing in the world. All the Merthyr Tydvil judgment said was that if a man refused to work he could not be relieved, nor if he threw himself out of work by his own act or consent. So there was a pure evasion of the point raised! It is a point which causes many people acute distress. Under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment a striker cannot be relieved, but his dependants may be. His wife gets 12s. a week in some places and 10s.
in others, 4s. for children in some places and 2s. in others; but there is no relief to the man. Nevertheless, if the man chances to earn 5s. some boards of guardians deduct from the wife's relief the 5s. he has picked up. That is altogether unbearably cruel. The wife's relief, under the instructions of the Minister, is not to be more than 12s., and with his approval, and under pressure by him on several boards of guardians, it has been reduced to less. The relief to the children in some cases is very small indeed, down to 2s., and yet if the man who has nothing whatever gets 5s., that 5s. is to be deducted from the wife's relief.
That is the position that the Minister takes up, and that is abominably cruel. He made no answer to it except to say that under the general law of the land you have to take the breadwinner's income into account in assessing the wife's relief. Where the wife's relief has been restricted by the Minister, and the man has no relief at all, under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, to deduct arbitrarily any 5s. that the man gets out of charity is, to my mind, very cruel. The Minister will not accept an Amendment to the effect that it is his duty to see that relief should be adequate, but I would remind the Committee that the Minister was expressly asked in this House if it was not his duty to see that relief was adequate. He replied: "That is not my duty; it is the duty of the guardians." That is No. 1 indication of his attitude, and I will give No. 2. Circular 703 suggested as a maximum for relief that it was not to be higher than unemployment benefit, and everywhere you can see the same attitude, in the refusal to recognise the duty of seeing that adequate relief is afforded, and the insistence on maximum scales, but not on minimum scales. It all goes to prove that the Minister's object is to keep down the money and not to exercise the greater and more important duty, the duty implied in his official name, to see that relief is adequate. We are getting bit by bit really to grips with this question, and the House is beginning to see what is really involved in this Bill. It is the determination to cut the boards of guardians down in their scales of relief. Circular 703, the right hon. Gentleman's answers to questions, and this Bill are
all parts of one considered and thoughtout policy, and that is why this Bill is arousing so much indignation in the country.

Sir K. WOOD: I do not think it is quite appropriate to discuss Circular 703 now, except to say that if hon. Members will look at it they will see that one of the first statements in that Circular is that the guardians must have regard to the position which faces them at the present time, not only in regard to their financial responsibilities, but to see that they carry out their duties properly. There is no Statute which lays down or suggests that we should prescribe their scales of relief, except in the sense that it is the duty of the guardians to relieve destitution. That is really the test, but my right hon. Friend has laid down certain scales for guidance. That does not void the statutory duty of guardians to relieve destitution and of necessity examine the more particular cases. I think that is really the legal position, and whatever the scale of relief it does not void the duty of the guardians in regard to relieving destitution.

Major CRAWFURD: I am much obliged to the hon. Member, and I understand it is not an exact maximum that the Minister lays down, but will he answer the further question as to whether the Minister or his predecessor has ever laid down a minimum?

Sir K. WOOD: No, I do not think it is the duty of the Minister to do that. It is a matter for the guardians, faced as they are with the statutory obligation of relieving destitution.

Major CRAWFURD: I understand that the statutory obligation of the guardians is to relieve destitution, but the obligation of the Ministry is to see that they do their duty, and how can the Ministry see that they do their duty unless there is in the Ministry some standard laid down as to what is the relief of destitution?

Sir K. WOOD: I think the hon. and gallant Member states the position of the Minister too high. It is not the duty of the Minister to overlook the boards of guardians, and to see that they are doing their duty in that sense. They are under a statutory obligation to relieve destitution, and if that is not done, there are
certain rights, which are from time to time maintained in the Courts, on behalf of various people to see that they do that. There is no right or obligation on the part of the Minister, and it would be a usurpation of functions if my right hon. Friend endeavoured to lay down a minimum scale.

Mr. WALLHEAD: You usurp functions in one case; why not in another?

Sir K. WOOD: In answer to the point put by the hon. and gallant Member for West Walthamstow (Major Crawfurd), that is the legal position.

Captain BENN: This Amendment seeks to make one of the grounds of default on the part of the guardians a failure to grant adequate relief. Perhaps it is unnecessary, because the Bill says that in certain cases the Bill shall operate when they have ceased to discharge their functions. Is it the view of the Government that guardians have ceased to discharge their functions if they do not grant adequate relief? It is very important to have an answer to that question, and that the Government should make up their minds about a minimum scale, because they are here proposing to become guardians themselves.

Sir K. WOOD: No. The Clause says that the Minister may, in certain circumstances, appoint certain persons to constitute a board in substitution of the existing guardians.

Captain BENN: What sort of autonomy will such a board have? Who are to pay their wages? Will they draw their wages from the Ministry of Health? Is it to be supposed that they are representatives of the ratepayers? I do not think so. Does the Minister consider that boards of guardians have ceased to discharge their functions if they fail to give adequate relief?

Sir K. WOOD: This board of guardians will be in exactly the same position, so far as their duties and functions are concerned, as the elected boards of guardians.

Miss LAWRENCE: Are they to be under no control by the Ministry and subject to nobody's criticisms? If they were an elected board, the electors could tear them from their seats, but the Minister is to appoint them and to renew
their lease of power and to pay their wages.

Mr. WALLHEAD: They are to act as the Minister's agents.

Miss LAWRENCE: They will act as the Minister's agents so far as cutting down relief is concerned. The Minister has said that it is a matter for the guardians, whether the people starve or not.

The CHAIRMAN: I would remind the hon. Lady that the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) had risen to ask a question before she spoke.

Captain BENN: I should be the last to seek to curtail Debate, but I was asking a question. I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary whether, in the considered judgment of himself and the Minister of Health, a board of guardians are guilty of failure to carry out their functions if they do not pay adequate relief?

Sir K. WOOD: The answer which I have already given is that there is no statutory obligation on the guardians, in the phrase of the hon. and gallant Member, to pay adequate relief. Their obligation is to relieve destitution, and this board will be in exactly the same position as other boards of guardians.

The CHAIRMAN: This is a question of dissolving the existing board, not of what the new one will do.

Captain BENN: The question is whether we are to insert some definition of what a failure to discharge these functions is and the Amendment proposes that it should be defined as a persistent failure to grant adequate relief. I submit that the question of what is adequate relief is perfectly relevant. It is useless for the Minister of Health to say that that is not his business, but the business of the guardians to decide. That would be a perfectly adequate reply if the guardians were to remain an independent body, but, once they have become a body created by the Ministry of Health and under their orders, it is obviously necessary for the Ministry to decide and proper for us to ask what is the minimum scale of relief they consider adequate. Supposing there is a board which does not pay an adequate scale of relief, would the Ministry consider themselves able by this Bill to make an order to make them pay more?
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee proceeded to a Division.

Mr. WALLHEAD: (seated and covered): I desire to raise a point of Order. I rose to speak before the Division was called and I believe the Standing Order says that the voices are not collected until both sides have raised their voices "Aye" or "No."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 114; Noes, 208.

Division No. 345.]
AYES.
[10.2 p.m.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Duncan, C.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly


Ammon, Charles George
Dunnico, H.
Kelly, W. T.


Attlee, Clement Richard
Gardner, J. P.
Kennedy, T.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertlilery)
Gillett, George M.
Lansbury, George


Barr, J.
Gosling, Harry
Lawrence, Susan


Batey, Joseph
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton
Lawson, John James


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Greenall, T.
Lindley, F. W.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne
Lowth, T.


Broad, F. A
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Lunn, William


Bromfield, William
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
MacLaren, Andrew


Bromley, J.
Groves, T.
March, S.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Grundy, T. W.
Montague, Frederick


Buchanan, G.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Morris, R. H.


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottennam, N.)


Caps, Thomas
Hardle, George D.
Murnin, H


Charleton, H. C.
Harney, E. A.
Oliver, George Harold


Cluse, W. S.
Hayday, Arthur
Owen, Major G.


Compton, Joseph
Hayes, John Henry
Palin, John Henry


Cove, W. G.
Hendersn, Right Hon. A. (Burnley
Paling W.


Crawfurd, H. E.
Hirst, G. H.
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.


Dalton, Hugh
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)-
Potts, John S.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Purcell, A. A.


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Day, Colonel Harry
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Riley, Ben


Dennison, R.
Jones, J J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Ritson, J.


Saklatvala, Shapurji
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe
Watson, W. M. (Dunfemline


Salter, Dr. Alfred
Stamford, T. W.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondd-.


Scrymgeour, E.
Stephen, Campbell
Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney


Scurr, John
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox
Welsh, J. C.


Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Sutton, J. E.
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Taylor, R. A.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Thurtle, E.
Williams, T.(York, Don Valley)


Sitch, Charles H.
Tinker, John Joseph
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Townend, A. E.
Windsor, Walter


Smillie, Robert
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Wright, W.


Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Varley, Frank B.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Viant, S. P.



Snell, Harry
Wallhead, Richard C.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phillip
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. A.




Barnes.


NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Moreing, Captain A. H.


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Morrison, H. (Wilts,Salisburry)


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Ganzoni, Sir John.
Murchison, C. K.


Atholl, Duchess of 
Gates, Percy
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph


Atkinson, C.
Goff, Sir Park
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Gower, Sir Robert
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Grace, John
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)


Balniel, Lord
Grant, Sir J. A. 
Nicholson, Col Rt. Hon. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld)


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Greene, W. P. Crawford
Nuttall, Ellis


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton


Berry, Sir George
Guiness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Oman, Sir Charles William C.


Bethel, A.
Gunston, Caption D. W.
Pennefather, Sir John


Betterton, Henry B.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Penny, Frederick George


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton
Hammersley, S. S.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Blundell, F. N.
Harland, A.
Perring, Sir William George


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington
Radford, E. A.


Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Hawke, John Anthony
Raine, W.


Bowver Capt. G. E. W.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bottle)
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P.
Rees, Sir Beddoe


Brass, Captain W.
Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Reld, D. D. (County Down


Briscoe, Richard George
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St.Marylebone)
Remer, J. R.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J
Holland, Sir Arthur
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)


Broun Lindsay, Major H.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Ropner, Major L.


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Barks, Newb'y)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Buckigham, Sir H.
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Rye, F. G.


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen, Sir Aylmer
Salmon, Major I.


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Hurd, Percy A.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Cassels,.J. D.
Hurst, Gerald B.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Hutchison, G.A.Clark(Midl'n & P'bl's)
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Chapman, Sir S.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Sanderson, Sir Frank


Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Jacob, A. E.
Savery, S. S.


Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
James, Lieut.-.Colonel on. Cuthbert
Shaw, R. G. (York W R., Sowerby)


Clarry, Reginald George
Jephcott, A. R.
Shaw, Capt, W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston
Shepperson, E. W.


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
King, Captain Henry Doughlas
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)


Cope, Major William
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Skelton, A. N.


Couper, J. B.
Knox Sir Alfred
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Courtauld, Major J. S.
Lamb, J. Q.
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Cralk, Rt. Hon Sir Henry
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Smithers, Waldron


Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)
Loder, J. de V.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Wlll'sden, E.,)


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Looker, Herbert William
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)


Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Lord, Walter Greaves
Steel, Major Samuel Strang


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Lougher, L.
Storry-Deans, R.


Dalziel. Sir Davison
Lumley, L. R.
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Catheart)
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Davies, Dr. Vernon
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Anges
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Macintyre, I.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Drewe, C.
Macmillan, Captain H.
Templeton, W. P.


Edmodson, Major A. J.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Edwards, John H. (Accrington)
Macquisten, F. A.
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Elliot, Major Walter E.
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Tinne, J. A.


Elveden, Viscount
Maitlans, Sir Arthur D. Steel
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Westons-s.-M.)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Margesson, Captain D.
Waddington, R.


Everard, W. Lindsay
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)


Fairfax, Captain J. G. 
Merriman, F. B.
Warrender, Sir Victor


Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Watts, Dr. T.


Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Wells, S. R.


Fielden, E. B.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple)


Finburgh, S.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Forrest, W.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)




Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Womersley, W. J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Winby, Colonel L. P.
Wood Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Mr. F. C. Thomson and Lord


Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Stanley.


Wise, Sir Fredric
Wragg, Herbert



Withers, John James
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

The following Amendment stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. BARNES:
In page 1, line 8, to leave out from the word "have" to the word "of" in line 10, and to insert instead thereof the words "acted contrary to the law in the discharge"

The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN: This Amendment is out of order.
Amendment proposed: In page 1, line 8, to leave out from the word "ceased," to the word "to" in line 10.—[Miss Lawrence.]

Captain BENN: I do not think an Amendment such as this can possibly be passed without some comment. If it is a serious Amendment, it deserves a serious reply from the Government Bench. It is proposed to leave out from the word "ceased" in line 8, to the word "to" in line 10; that is to say, that the anticipation to default ranks equally with actual default. This will make a very serious difference in the power of the Minister. He came down to this House and assumed the power to supersede a board of guardians, not only when they cease to discharge their functions, but also when they appear to be incapable of discharging their functions. Now it is proposed in this Amendment to prevent him acting in cases where guardians are only likely to be incapable of discharging their functions. It is inconceivable that the Government are going to accept this Amendment. If they are, I am very pleased to hear it, but it will certainly make a fundamental change in this Bill. But suppose they are not going to accept it and are going to act in a case where they anticipate some reason that default may take place, then, surely, they should say in this Committee stage some few words for the justification of the second of the powers they seek to take. The Minister of Health told us earlier in the Debate that a certain Amendment could not be accepted because this Bill had to deal particularly with the West Ham case. That may be so. I do not know. I should have thought, if you were going to deal with that in a Bill, you would
have done so by an ad hoc Bill. That would certainly have limited the ambit of the Bill, and hon. Members from other parts of the country, like myself from Scotland, would have had no occasion to intervene.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It does not apply to Scotland.

Captain BENN: I know it does not, but the Scottish Board of Health may wish to follow the right hon. Gentleman's example. He said this Bill applied particularly to West Ham. If that be so, what is the meaning of the anticipatory powers contained in these few words, applicable to where it appears they have ceased to exercise their powers, or, as he informed us, will shortly be unable to continue to exercise their powers. If this be an urgent Bill, intended to deal with the West Ham case, I submit it is not necessary for the Minister of Health to arm himself with general powers, and that it will not be necessary to bring in a general reform of the Poor Law if this Bill provides him with the necessary powers so to evade the intentions he has avowed. It may be that we have no power to compel the Minister to answer, and I may be simply a voice crying in the wilderness, but, at any rate, I maintain the elementary, but rapidly disappearing, privilege of addressing the Committee. That being so, I respectfully submit that this Amendment, which strikes at the root of the Bill, having been moved, the Committee have a right to expect the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister of Health to give some reply, and explain why the Government intend to resist this Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down says that this Amendment strikes at the root of the Bill. That is in fact the effect it would have if this Amendment were carried, because we should be in the position that the machinery contemplated by the Bill would only come into operation when the functions of the guardians had actually ceased, and people would not be able to get any relief whatsoever.

Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON: Perhaps I may be allowed to explain why the hon. Member for East Ham (Miss Lawrence) contended herself with formally moving this Amendment. We feel very strongly about the Amendment, but we also feel that, however eloquently we may plead, the Minister of Health is quite impervious to all that we can say or do. We have, therefore, decided upon some half dozen of the most important Amendments, and we propose to move them formally, and make our protest in the Division Lobby. We shall leave over some three or four important Amendments for a short discussion to-morrow, and we hope the remainder of the day will be given up to the Third Reading. As far as we are concerned, the right hon. Gentleman by the usual method of a Closure, will be able to secure the

Third reading of this Bill before the close of to-morrow's sitting.

Captain BENN: I should have thought that it was not necessary to apply this brutal gag to an Opposition that was so meek and submissive as only to move their own Amendments formally. If Amendments are put down on the Paper, I submit that we are entitled to have an explanation from the Government. With regard to the explanation which the Minister of Health has just given, it merely proves that the words "have ceased" will be unnecessary, because, as be has explained, he must act in anticipation.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 118.

Division No. 346.]
AYES.
[10.20 p.m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Dalziel, Sir Davison
Hurd, Percy A.


Ainsworth, Major Charles
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.
Hurst, Gerald B.


Albery, Irving James
Davies, Dr. Vernon
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)


Atholl, Duchess of
Drewe, C.
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.


Atkinson, C.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Jacob, A. E.


Balniel, Lord
Elveden, Viscount
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert


Barclay Harvey, C. M.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Jephcott, A. R.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)


Berry, Sir George
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)


Bethel, A.
Everard, W. Lindsay
King, Captain Henry Douglas


Betterton, Henry R.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement


Bird. E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Knox, Sir Alfred


Blundell F. N.
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Lamb, J. Q.


Bourne, Captain Robert Craft
Fielden, E. B.
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.


Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Finburgh, S.
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)


Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.
Forrest, W.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Loder, J. de V.


Brass, Captain W.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Looker, Herbert William


Briscoe, Richard George
Ganzonl, Sir John
Lord, Walter Greaves-


Brittain, Sir Harry
Gates, Percy
Lougher, L.


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Goff, Sir Park
Lumley, L. R.


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Gower, Sir Robert
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Grace, John
Macintyre, I.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)
Grant, Sir J. A.
Macmillan, Captain H.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Greene, W. P. Crawford
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Macquisten, F. A.


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
MacRobert, Alexander M.


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel


Cassels, J. D.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn


Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Hammersley, S. S.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Merriman, F. B.


Chapman, Sir S.
Harland, A.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)


Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Harrison, G. J. C.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)


Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)


Clarry, Reginald George
Hawke, John Anthony
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Moreing, Captain A. H.


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)


Cope, Major William
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)
Murchison, C. K.


Couper, J. B.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph


Courtauld, Major J. S.
Holland, Sir Arthur
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Hope, Capt A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Nicholson, O. (Westminster


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.)


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Nuttall, Eills


Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Eillis
Oakley, T.


O'Conner, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Sanderson, Sir Frank
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Savery, S. S.
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Pennefather, Sir John
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Waddington, R.


Penny, Frederick George
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y
Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull


Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Warrender, Sir Victor


Perring, Sir William George
Shepperson, E. W.
Watts, Dr. T.


Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Wells, S. R.


Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple


Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Skelton, A. N.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Radford. E. A.
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Raine, W.
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


Rawson, Sir Cooper
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield


Rees, Sir Beddoe
Smithers, Waldron
Winby, Colonel L.P.


Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Remer, J. R.
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)
Wise, Sir Fredric


Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Withers, John James


Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Story-Deans, R.
Womersley, W. J.


Ropner, Major L.
Strickland, Sir Gerald
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)


Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Wragg, Herbert


Rye, F. G.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Salmon, Major I.
Templeton, W. P.



Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Lord Stanley and Captain Mar-


Sandeman, A. Stewart
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
gesson.


Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Tinne, J. A.



NOES


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Ammon, Charles George
Hardle, George D.
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis


Attlee, Clement Richard
Harney, E. A.
Shiels, Dr. Drummond


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery
Hayday, Arthur
Sitch, Charles H.


Barnes, A.
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Slesser, Sir Henry H.


Barr, J.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Smillie, Robert


Batey, Joseph
Hirst, G. H.
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Hudson, J.H. (Huddersfield).
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Snell, Harry


Briant, Frank
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Broad, F. A.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Bromfield, William
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Stamford, T. W.


Bromley, J.
Kelly, W. T.
Stephen, Campbell


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Kennedy, T.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Buchanan, G.
Lansbury, George
Sutton, J. E.


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Lawrence, Susan
Taylor, R. A.


Cape, Thomas
Lawson, John James
Thurtle, E.


Charleton, H. C.
Lindley, F. W.
Tinker, John Joseph


Cluse, W. S.
Lowth, T.
Townend, A. E.


Compton, Joseph
Lunn, William
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.


Cove, W. G.
MacLaren, Andrew
Varley, Frank B.


Crawfurd, H. E.
March, S.
Viant, S. P.


Dalton, Hugh
Montague, Frederick
Wallhead, Richcard C.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale
Morris, R. H.
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Murnin, H.
Watts-Morgan Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Day, Colonel Harry
Oilver, George Harold
Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney


Dennison, R.
Owen, Major G.
Welsh, J. C.


Duncan, C.
Palin, John Henry
Westwood, J.


Dunnico, H.
Paling, W.
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Gardner, J. P.
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)


Gillett, George M.
Potts, John S.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Gosling, Harry
Purcell, A. A.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Windsor, Walter


Greenall, T.
Riley, Ben
Wright, W.


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Ritson, J.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Saklatvala, Shapurji



Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Salter, Dr. Alfred
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Groves, T.
Scrymgeour, E.
Mr. Hayes, And Mr. Charles


Grundy, T. W.
Scurr, John
Edwards.


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Sexton, James

Amendment proposed: In page 1, line 12, to leave out from the word "Act" to the word "to" in line 14, and to insert instead thereof the words "make provision for the election of other persons."—[Mr. Greenwood.]

Mr. BRIANT: It would be very strange if this Amendment were put to
the Vote without a word being said on either side. I understand it is intended to suggest that, instead of leaving it in the hands of the Minister, the electors shall have an opportunity of selecting other representatives. Considering the immense scope of the Bill and the almost incoherent way in which it has been
framed, it seems to me extremely advisable that before any autocratic action is taken by the Minister the electors should have an opportunity of expressing an opinion themselves. In the end reform will only come through votes. I do not know what the Minister proposes to do, and what he considers to be the functions of boards of guardians. I have had many years' experience on a board of guardians, and I know that the functions are of a very varied character. However able and sympathetic a Minister may be, it will be very difficult for him to decide what functions they have failed to exercise. The functions of a board of guardians include the giving of adequate relief. Does this Sub-section mean that, without any consultation with the members of a board, the Minister can decide either that they are not giving enough relief or that they are giving too much, and that they are consequently unable to discharge their functions? Does it mean that if they have not given enough assistance for the sick poor that he can take their functions out of their hands? If and when a Labour Government comes into office, the late Minister of Health might, and in all probability would, act in an entirely opposite direction from that adopted by the present Minister of Health.
For the protection of the Government itself, the electors should be allowed to express an opinion. The only method that can be successful is the education of the electorate and by giving them an opportunity to exercise their opinions, rather than the adoption by a Minister of autocratic powers. I hope that the Committee will consider this Amendment seriously, because if we do not carry the Amendment it will place not only the West Ham Board of Guardians, but other guardians, at the mercy of the Minister. He will be able to interpret the slipshod words of the Clause in any way he likes. I could suggest 30 ways in which a board of guardians might omit to discharge their functions. The adoption of the Clause in its present form places in the hands of the Minister powers far too autocratic, and we ought to have safeguards. I hope we shall have some explanation of the Amendment from the supporters of it, and also some explanation from the Minister of his point of view.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The subject of this Amendment was touched upon in the Second Reading Debate. The situation that we contemplate by the words proposed to be left out is a deadlock which might occur, because the result of the election might be practically the same. In that event we should find ourselves after the election in exactly the same position as before the election. That is why we seek the powers which are here given.

Mr. J. JONES: I support the Amendment.

Major COLFOX: Has not the hon. Member already sufficiently—[Interruption.]

Mr. JONES: I am speaking on a totally different Amendment. I am speaking in support of a new election. The right to supersede a board of guardians is part of the Bill, but it is only a temporary right. The Minister admits that there should be a new election in the intervening period but after the present period the West Ham Board of Guardians or any other board—West Ham is only the stalking horse—may be affected. Does he suggest that he should have permanent powers to nominate his own paid board of guardians, with their paid advisers? That is what this provision means. We in West Ham, whatever and however the right hon. Gentleman may have his board of guardians' election, shall return Labour men and Labour women. They will be ordinary working men and women who will be returned. We want to know how this provision is to be carried out, and when. Are you going to carry on for ever, or until this Government lasts, which will not be for ever. This Amendment limits the powers of the Minister. Local authorities will have to find the money for this relief. Some of us have been on these local bodies, and do you think we are going to find money for you? [An HON. MEMBER: "Brotherly love!"] Yes, brotherly love. You will have to find the money, which you have never done before. We have bad to foot the bill up to now, and you will have to foot the bill in future.

Mr. WALLHEAD: You will have a strike of ratepayers in West Ham.

Mr. JONES: We shall have more than that, we shall have a strike of rentpayers.
Although you have all the power, if you treat us decently, we will treat you decently.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now going beyond this Amendment.

Mr. JONES: I generally go beyond everything, Sir. The object of this Amendment is to limit the power of Mussolini. The Government have no right to put aside the Common Law of this country. The right hon. Gentleman knows that he dare not make this a permanent Measure, but he is to have the power of appointing boards of guardians. The same right hon. Gentleman refuses to allow working men and women, who cannot afford to sit on public bodies, a shilling a day for lunch when they are working from 10 o'clock in the morning until 7 o'clock in the evening; and he is going to pay his little pigs. Who are they going to be? We know who they are. If the right hon. Gentleman does not know, I do. I can give you the names of some who are already proposed—retired civil servants, who have already got pensions. We have a right to put a limit on the power of this Birmingham potentate. The little idols made in Birmingham have hitherto been sent abroad, and it is time we kept this little one at home and limited his capacity for mischief. We demand that these powers should be limited. I do not want to use any threats. [HON. MEMBKRS "Hear, hear!"] No, I am not so capable as some hon. Members opposite, whose shirts have been washed oftener than mine. I can only say that in the course of events Labour may sit on the bench opposite, and a Labour man be Minister of Labour. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, the present Minister of Health, whether then he would be prepared to concede to that Labour Minister the same rights that he now claims for himself: that is, the right to say who shall administer the public health and the Poor Law? Is he prepared to admit that? No. I am sure he would never admit it.
Does the right hon. Gentleman—I ask him this question quite frankly—that when he asks the overseers in West Ham to see that the money is collected for Poor Law administration, from their
point of view having no control—does he imagine that they are going to levy a rate for him? It will not be merely the board of guardians that he will have to supersede, he will have to supersede the borough council. The boards of guardians will not be the only people in trouble. He will have the overseers and the county council who will also be in trouble. The powers asked for by this Bill mean, not only superseding the board of guardians or the local authority, it will mean superseding the ratepayers and the authorities throughout the country. I wonder if hon. Gentlemen opposite quite comprehend what that means? I am one of the overseers in West Ham. We have not yet discussed the matter, because the rate has not yet been levied, but supposing those concerned come along and say we have got to pay money for these nominated officers, these non-elected people, without any responsibility to the people—that we have to find money for them. I am one of those who say that we are not going to do it.
You are not, therefore, merely raising the question of the boards of guardians; you are raising the question of the whole of the local government of this country, whether you like it or not! Consequently while we may be wrong we have to-day made you a good offer and invited you to put us to the test. The Parliamentary Secretary represents Woolwich, but the council there is not the rating authority. We are a county borough in West Ham. We are the rating authority. Woolwich gets the benefit of the Common Poor Law Fund of London. West Ham gets no benefit. Other parts of the country do not get any benefit. I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman, are the Government prepared to face the issue of dislocating and disorganising the whole of the local government in this country? If they are let them say so. We are moving that the power of the Minister should be limited. The limitation of the power of the right hon. Gentleman means an end to his political existence.

Mr. MORRIS: The explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, that all that is contemplated by this Clause is to deal with the situation in a deadlock which has arisen, does not carry us very much further. Who is to determine when a
deadlock has arisen? The situation in West Ham is not the only situation that can possibly arise, and who is to determine under this Bill when boards of guardians have ceased to function, or when they are not properly performing their functions? Occasion may arise which are totally different from the present situation, and the Government ought to ask themselves seriously whether this proposal does not carry them much further than they contemplated. Assuming that a Socialist Minister of Health came into office, and that a Conservative hoard of guardians in the West End of London declined to spend according to the scale determined upon by the Socialist Minister, and that the Minister then declared in that situation a deadlock had arisen—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That question has been decided earlier in the discussion on this Clause.

Mr. MORRIS: This is a serious invasion of the democratic rights of the nation and of the present constitutional method, in circumstances the result of which the Government cannot have fully contemplated. If a Minister of a different complexion is to have the power to determine what is a deadlock, merely upon political grounds, the temptation will be very great.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: All that has already been decided.

Mr. MORRIS: The Minister proposes to do away with the electoral method and to appoint a new body. Does he contemplate that the new body he is

going to appoint will be any more effective than the previous body which has been unable to carry on under the former method?

HON. MEMBERS: Divide!

Mr. HARRIS: rose—

HON. MEMBERS: Divide!

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee proceeded to a Division—

Mr. HARRIS: (seated and covered): On a point of Order. Owing to a disorderly noise on the opposite side of the Committee, I could not hear the Question put. I submit respectfully that the Question ought not to be put unless it is audible to the Committee.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not think that is my fault.

Mr. HARRIS: Is it not right that, before the Question is put, there should be order in the Committee so that Members may hear? I do not know what is the Question that has been put.

Captain BENN: (seated and covered): On a point of Order. May I ask whether you will say what was the Question put?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 99.

Division No. 347.]
AYES.
[10.49 p.m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Han. Sir James T.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert


Albery, Irving James
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)
Curtis Bernett, Sir Henry


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)
Curzon, Captain Viscount


Atholl, Duchess of
Buckingham, Sir H.
Dalkeith, Earl of


Atkinson, C.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Dalzlel, Sir Davison


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Burton, Colonel H. W.
Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.


Bainiel, Lord
Cassels, J. D.
Davies, Dr. Vernon


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Dawson, Sir Philip


Berry, Sir George
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley


Bethel, A.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Drewe, C.


Betterton, Henry B.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
Edmondson, Major A. J.


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Clarry, Reginald George
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)


Blundell, F. N.
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Elliot, Major Walter E.


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Elveden, Viscount


Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Conway, Sir W. Martin
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)


Brass, Captain W.
Cope, Major William
Everard, W. Lindsay


Bridgman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Couper, J. B.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.


Briscoe, Richard George
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Falls, Sir Bertram G.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Flelden, E. B.


Finburgh, S.
Locker-Lampoon, G. (Wood Green)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dtworth, Putney)


Forrest, W.
Loder, J. de V.
Sandeman, A. Stewart



Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Looker, Herbert William
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Lord, Walter Greases-
Sanderson, Sir Frank


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Lougher, L.
Savery, S. S.


Ganzonl, Sir John
Lumley, L. R.
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)


Gates, Percy
McDonnell. Colonel Hon. Angus
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Goff, Sir Park
Macintyre, I.
Shepperson, E. W.


Gower, Sir Robert
Macmillan, Captain H.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Grace, John
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)


Grant, Sir J. A.
Macqulsten, F. A.
Skelton, A. N.


Greene, W. P. Crawford
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)


Gunston, Captain D. W.
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Smithers, Waldron


Hammersley, S. S.
Merriman, F. B.
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Harland, A.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)


Harrison, G. J. C.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Steel, Major Samuel Strang


Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Storry-Deans, R.


Hawke, John Anthony
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Murchison, C. K.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Henn, Sir Sydney H
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Templeton, W. P.


Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Holland, Sir Arthur
Nicholson, Col. Rt.Hn.W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Nuttall, Ellis 
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Hopkins, J. W. W.
Oakley, T.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Waddington, R.


Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)


Hume-Willlams, Sir W. Ellis
Pennefather, Sir John
Warrender, Sir Victor


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen, Sir Aylmer
Penny, Frederick George
Watts, Dr. T.


Hurd, Percy A.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Wells, S. R.


Hurst, Gerald B.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple


Hutchison,G.A.Clark(Midl'n & P'bl's)
Perring, Sir William George
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Iliffe, Sir Edward M
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. 
Radford, E. A.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.
Ralne, W.
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'I) 
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Jacob, A. E.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Wise, S, Fredric


Jephcott, A. R.
Remer, J. R.
Withers John James


Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Womersley, W. J.


Kennedy, T.
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)


Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Ropner, Major L.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Wragg, Herbert 


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Knox, Sir Alfred
Rye, F. G.



Lamb, J. Q.
Salmon, Major I.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Captain Margesson and Captain




Bowyer.


NOES.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Gosling, Harry
Lunn, William


Attlee, Clement Richard
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
MacLaren, Andrew


Barnes, A.
Greenall, T.
March, S.


Barr, J
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Montague, Frederick


Batey, Joseph
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Murnin, H.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) 
Groves, T.
Oliver, George Harold


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Grundy, T. W.
Owen, Maine G.


Broad, F. A. 
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Paling, W.


Bromfield, William
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.


Bromley, J.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Ponsonby, Arthur


Buchanan. G. 
Hardie, George D.
Potts. John S.


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Harney, E. A.
Purcell, A. A.


Cape, Thomas
Harris, Percy A.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Charleton, H. C.
Hayday, Arthur
Riley, Ben


Cluse, W. S.
Hayes, John Henry
Ritson, J.


Compton, Joseph
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Saklatvala, Shapurji


Crawford, H. E.
Hirst, G. H.
Salter, Dr. Alfred


Dalton, Hugh
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield).
Scrymgeour, E.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Scurr, John


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Sexton, James


Day, Colonel Harry
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Dunnico, H.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Shepherd. Arthur Lewis


Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Kelly, W. T.
Shiels, Dr. Drummond


Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.
Lawrence, Susan
Sitch, Charles H.


Gardner, J. P.
Lindley, F. W.
Smillie, Robert


Gillett, George M.
Lowth, T.
Smith. H. B. Lees (Keighley)




Snell, Harry
Varley, Frank B.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) 
Viant, S. P.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Stewart, J. (St. Roliox) 
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Windsor, Walter


Sutton, J. E. 
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhonnda)
Wright, W.


Taylor, R. A.
Welsh, J. C.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Thurtie, E.
Westwood, J.



Tinker, John Joseph
Wiggins, William Martin
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Townend, A. E. 
Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Mr. Morris and Mr. Briant.

Question put accordingly, "That the words 'appoint such' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 116.

Division No. 348.]
AYES.
[10.59 p. m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Macmillan, Captain H.


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. 
Everard, W. Lindsay
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm


Ainsworth, Major Charles
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Macquisten, F. A.


Albery, Irving James
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
MacRobert, Alexander M.


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)
Fielden, E. B.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel.


Atholl, Duchess of
Finburgh, S.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.


Atkinson, C.
Forrest, W
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Merriman, F. B.


Balniel, Lord
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Ganzoni, Sir John
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)


Bann, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Gates, Percy.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)


Berry, Sir George
Goff, Sir Park
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.


Bethel, A. 
Gower, Sir Robert
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col, J. T. C.


Betterton, Henry B.
Grace, John
Moreing, Captain A, H.


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Grant, Sir.J. A.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)


Blundell, F. N.
Greene, W. P. Crawford
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Guinness, Rt. Hon, Walter E.
Murchison, C. K.


Bowater, Sir T. Vanslttart
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir L B.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)


Brass, Captain W.
Hammersley, S. S.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. [Cambridge,


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)


Briscoe, Richard George
Harland, A.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrst'ld.)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Nuttall, Ellis


Brockiebank, C. E. R.
Harrison, G. J. C.
Oakley, T.


Brooke, Brigadier-General C.R.I.
Harvey, G (Lambeth, Kennington)
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Hawke, John Anthony
Oman, Sir Charles William C.


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col, V. L. (Bootle)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks,Newb'y)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Pennefather, Sir John


Buckingham, Sir H.
Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Penny, Frederick George


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Peering, Sir William George


Cassels, J. D.
Holland, Sir Arthur
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)


Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Hope, Capt. A.O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Pato, G. (Somerset, Frome)


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Radford, E. A.


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Raine, W.


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N (Ladywood) 
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Rees, Sir Beddoe


Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Remer, J. R.


Clarry, Reginald George
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Clayton, G. C. 
Hurd, Percy A.
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hurst, Gerald B.
Ropner, Major L.


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)
Ruggles Brise, Major E. A.


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Conway, Sir W. Martin
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Rye, F. G.


Cope, Major William
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Salmon, Major I.


Couper, J. B.
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Courtauld, Major J. S.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Jacob, A. E.
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) 
Jephcott, A. R.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Sanderson, Sir Frank


Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D


Curzon, Captain Viscount
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Savery, S. S.


Dalkeith, Earl of
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)


Dalziel, Sir Davison
Knox, Sir Alfred
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)


Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Lamb, J. Q.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Shepperson, E. W.


Davies, Dr. Vernon
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Dawson, Sir Philip
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Sinclair, Col.T.(Queen's Univ.,Belfst.)


Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Loder, J. de V.
Skelton, A. N.


Drewe, C.
Looker, Herbert William
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Lord, Walter Greaves
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine,C.)


Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)
Laugher, L.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Elliot, Major Walter E.
Lumley, L. R.
Smithers, Waldron


Elveden, Viscount
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s M.)
Macintyre, I.
Stanley,Col.Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Wise, Sir Fredric


Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Waddington, R.
Withers, John James


Storry Deans, R.
Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Wolmer, Viscount


Strickland, Sir Gerald
Warrender, Sir Victor
Womersley, W. J.


Stuart, Crichton, Lord C.
Watts, Dr. T.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Wells, S. R.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple
Wragg, Herbert


Templeton, W. P.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Yerburgh, Major Robert D.


Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)



Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Wilson, R. R (Stafford, Lichfield)
Captain Margesson and Captain


Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell
Winby, Colonel L. P.
Bowyer.


NOES.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
 Salter, Dr. Alfred 


Ammon, Charles George
Hardie, George D.
Scrymgeour, E.


Attlee, Clement Richard
Harney, E. A.
Scurr, John 


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) 
Harris, Percy A.
Sexton, James 


Barr, J. 
Hayday, Arthur 
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Batey, Joseph
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Shiels, Dr. Drummond 


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) 
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Sitch, Charles H.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. 
Hirst, G, H.
Slesser, Sir Henry H.


Briant, Frank
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Smillie, Robert 


Broad, F. A. 
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)


Bromfield, William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Snell, Harry 


Bromley, J. 
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Snowden. Rt. Hon. Philip 


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) 
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Buchanan, G. 
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Stamford, T. W.


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel
Kelly, W. T.
Stephen, Campbell 


Cape, Thomas
Kennedy, T.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Charleton, H. C. 
Lansbury, George 
Sutton, J. E.


Cluse, W. S. 
Lawrence, Susan 
Taylor, R. A.


Compton, Joseph
Lawson, John James 
Thurtle, E.


Dalton, Hugh
Lindley, F. W.
Tinker, John Joseph 


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) 
Lowth, T.
Townend, A. E.


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) 
Lunn, William 
Trevetyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) 
MacLaren, Andrew 
Varley, Frank B.


Day, Colonel Harry
March, S.
Viant, S. P.


Duncan, C. 
Montague, Frederick 
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Dunnico, H. 
Morris, R. H.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) 
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Welsh, J. C.


Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) 
Murnin, H.
Westwood, J.


Gardner, J. P. 
Oliver, George Harold 
Wiggins, William Martin 


Gillett, George M. 
Owen, Major G.
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Gosling, Harry
Palin, John Henry 
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) 
Paling, W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Greenall, T. 
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) 
Ponsonby, Arthur 
Windsor, Walter 


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) 
Potts, John S.
Wright, W.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) 
Purcell, A. A.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Groves, T. 
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)



Grundy, T. W. 
Riley, Ben 
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) 
Ritson J.
Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Hayes.


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) 
Saklatvala, Shapurji

Mr. J. HUDSON: I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, after the word "such," to insert the word "qualified."
In view of the arrangement that was made earlier in the day, and also in view of the general discussion that is being held at length covering the point in this Amendment, I will only formally move it.

Captain BENN: I wish to make it perfectly clear that Members sitting on these benches have not been consulted as to this Amendment, and are therefore not bound to observe the terms of the

arrangement. I would like to know what is the objection to the insertion of the word "qualified." It seems a useful thing that any person who is acting in this capacity should be qualified, and I should like to know what objection the Minister has to it.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The objection is that the word is obviously unnecessary.
Question put, "That the word 'qualified' be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 108; Noes, 230.

Division No. 349.]
AYES.
[11.10 p.m.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Batey, Joseph 


Ammon, Charles George
Barnes, A.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)


Attlee, Clement Richard
Barr, J.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.


Briant, Frank
Hirst, G. H.
Scurr, John


Broad, F. A.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Sexton, James


Bromley, J.
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield).
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Shiels, Dr. Drummond


Buchanan, G.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Sitch, Charles H.


Cape, Thomas
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Slesser, Sir Henry H.


Charleton, H. C.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Smillie, Robert


Cluse, W. S.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Smith, H, B. Lees (Keighley)


Compton, Joseph
Kelly, W. T.
Snell, Harry


Dalton, Hugh
Kennedy, T.
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lansbury, George
Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lawrence, Susan
Stamford, T. W.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lawson, John James
Stephen, Campbell


Day, Colonel Harry
Lindley, F. W.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Duncan, C.
Lunn, William
Sutton, J. E.


Dunnico, H.
Mac Laren, Andrew
Taylor, R. A.


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
March, S.
Thurtle, E.


Gardner, J. P.
Montague, Frederick
Tinker, John Joseph


Gillett, George M.
Morris, R. H.
Townend, A. E.


Gosling, Harry
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Varley, Frank B.


Graham, D. M (Lanark, Hamilton)
Murnin, H.
Viant, S. P.


Greenall, T.
Oliver, George Harold
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Owen, Major G.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Palln, John Henry
Welsh, J. C.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Paling, W.
Westwood, J.


Groves, T.
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Grundy, T. W.
Ponsonby, Arthur
Williams, Dr J. H. (Lianelly)


Hall, F. (York W.R., Normanton)
Potts, John S.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Purcell, A. A.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Windsor, Walter


Hardie, George D.
Riley, Ben
Wright, W.


Harris, Percy A.
Ritson, J.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hayday, Arthur
Saklatvala, Shapurji



Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Salter, Dr, Alfred
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—




Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Hayes.


NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.


Ainsworth, Major Charles
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Albery, Irving James
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone)


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy


Atholl, Duchess of
Dalkeith, Earl of
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard


Atkinson, C.
Dalziel, Sir Davison
Holland, Sir Arthur


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Davidson,J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.
Hopkins, J. W. W.


Balniel, Lord
Davies, Dr. Vernon
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Dawson, Sir Philip
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)


Berry, Sir George
Drewe, C.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)


Bethel, A.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis


Betterton, Henry B.
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)
Hurd, Percy A.


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)


Blundell, F. N.
Elveden, Viscount
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston s. M.)
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.


Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.


Brass, Captain W.
Everard, W. Lindsay
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Jacob, A. E.


Briscoe, Richard George
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Jephcott, A. R.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Fielden, E. B.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Finburgh, S.
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Forrest, W.
King, Captain Henry Douglas


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Knox, Sir Alfred


Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Lamb, J. O.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Ganzoni, Sir John
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Gates, Percy
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Goff, Sir Park
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Gower, Sir Robert
Loder, J. de V.


Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Grace, John
Looker, Herbert William


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Grant, Sir J. A.
Lord, Walter Greaves


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Greene, W. P. Crawford
Lougher, L.


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Lumley, L. R.


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Gunston, Captain D. W.
McDonnell, Colonel Han. Angus


Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Macintyre, Ian


Clayton, G. C.
Hammersley, S. S.
Macmillan, Captain H.


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Harland, A.
MacRobert, Alexander M.


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel


Cope, Major William
Harrison, G. J. C.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.


Couper, J. B.
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn


Courtauld, Major J. S.
Hawke, John Anthony
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.




Merriman, F. B.
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Ropner, Major L.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Templeton, W, P.


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Monsell, Eyres, Com. Bt. Hon. B. M.
Rye, F. G.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Moore-Brabazon Lieut.-Col. J. T. C
Salmon, Major I.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Moreing, Captain A. H.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell


Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Sandeman, A. Stewart
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Murchison, C. K.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Waddington, R.


Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Sanderson, Sir Frank
Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)


Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Warrender, Sir Victor


Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Savery, S. S.
Watts, Dr. T.


Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Wells, S. R.


Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Wiggins, William Martin


Nuttall, Ellis
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Oakley, T.
Shepperson, E. W.
Williams, Corn. C. (Devon, Torquay)


O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Simms, Dr, John M. (Co. Down)
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Skelton, A. N.
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Pennefather, Sir John
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Wise, Sir Fredric


Penny, Frederick George
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Withers, John James


Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Wolmer, Viscount


Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Smithers, Waldron
Womersley W. J.


Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)


Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Will'sden, E.)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Radford, E. A.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Wragg, Herbert


Raine, W.
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Rawson, Sir Cooper
Steel, Major Samuel Strang



Rees, Sir Beddoe
Storry-Deans, R.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Remer, J. R.
Strickland, Sir Gerald
Captain Margesson and Captain


Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Bowyer.

Amendment proposed: In page 1, line 17, to leave out the word "twelve," and to insert instead thereof the word "three."—[Mr. C. Edwards.]

Captain BENN: Will the Minister accept a shorter period than 12 months? The right hon. Gentleman has already explained that his intention is to bring in a general reform of the Poor Law, but he says that he must in the meantime deal with the West Ham Board of Guardians. I would like to know what

objection the right hon. Gentleman has to taking three months instead of twelve?

Sir K. WOOD: Twelve months is the maximum period, but as the hon Member will see if he consults the provisions of the Bill, the Order can be revoked and a more limited period can be taken.
Question put, "That the word 'twelve' stand part of the Clause.'

The Committee divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 102.

Division No. 350.]
AYES.
[11.20 p m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Falle, Sir Bertram G.


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Fielder, E. B.


Ainsworth, Major Charles
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Finburgh, S.


Albery, Irving James
Chartoris, Brigadier-General J.
Forrest, W.


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)
Clayton, G. C.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.


Atholl, Duchess of
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony


Atkinson, C.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Ganzoni, Sir John


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cope, Major William
Gates, Percy


Balniel, Lord
Cowper, J. B.
Goff, Sir Park


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Grace, John


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Grant, Sir J. A.


Bethel, A.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)
Greene, W. P. Crawford


Betterton, Henry B.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Gunston, Captain D. W.


Blundell, F. N.
Dalkeith, Earl of
Hail, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Dalziel, Sir Davison
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)


Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Hammersley, S. S.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Brass, Captain W.
Davies, Dr. Vernon
Harland, A.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Dawson, Sir Philip
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Briscoe, Richard George
Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Harrison, G. J. C.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Drewe, C.
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Edmondson. Major A. J.
Hawke, John Anthony


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Elveden, Viscount
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone)


Buckingham, Sir H.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Holland, Sir Arthur


Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Everard, W. Lindsay
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Hopkins, J. W. W.


Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Skelton, A N.


Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Murchison, C. K.
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)


Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Hume Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Smithers, Waldron


Hutchison, G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Nuttall, Ellis
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Oakley, T.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'sland)


Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Steel, Major Samuel Strang


Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Storry-Deans, R.


Jacob, A. E
Owen, Major G.
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Pennefather, Sir John
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Penny, Frederick George
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Templeton, W. P.


Knox, Sir Alfred
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Lamb, J. Q.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Radford, E. A.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Raine, W.
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell


Loder, J. de V.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Looker, Herbert William
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Lord, Walter Greave.
Remer, J. R.
Waddington, R.


Lougher, L.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)


Lumley, L. R.
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Warrender, Sir Victor


McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Ropner, Major L.
Watts, Dr. T.


Macintyre, I.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Wells, S. R.


Macmillan, Captain H.
Russell Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Rye, F. G.
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


MacRobert Alexander M.
Salmon, Major I.
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Sandeman, A. Stewart
Wise, Sir Fredric


Margesson, Captain D.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Withers, John James


Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Sanderson, Sir Frank
Wolmer, Viscount


Merriman, F. B.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Womersley, W. J.


Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Savery, S. S.
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).


Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wills, Westb'y)
Wragg, Herbert


Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon B. M.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Shepperson, E. W.



Moreing, Captain A. H.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)
Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Bowyer.


NOES.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hardie, George D.
Salter, Dr. Alfred


Ammon, Charles George
Harney, E. A.
Scurr, John


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hayday, Arthur
Sexton, James


Barnes, A.
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Barr, J.
Hirst, G. H.
Shiels, Dr. Drummond


Batey, Joseph
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Sitch, Charles H.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Smillie, Robert


Briant, Frank
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)


Broad, F. A.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Snell, Harry


Bromley, J.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Buchanan, G.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Stamford, T. W.


Cape, Thomas
Kelly, W. T.
Stephen, Campbell


Charleton, H. C.
Kennedy, T.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Cluse, W. S.
Lansbury, George
Sutton, J. E.


Compton, Joseph
Lawrence, Susan
Taylor, R. A.


Dalton, Hugh
Lawson, John James
Thurtle, E.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lindley, F. W.
Tinker, John Joseph


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lunn, William
Townend, A. E.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
MacLaren, Andrew
Varley, Frank B.


Day, Colonel Harry
March, S.
Viant, S. P.


Duncan, C.
Montague, Frederick
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Dunnico, H.
Morris, R. H.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Welsh, J. C.


Gillett, George M.
Murnin, H.
Westwood, J.


Gosling, Harry
Oliver, George Harold
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Palin, John Henry
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)


Greenall, T.
Paling, W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Windsor, Walter


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Potts, John S.
Wright, W.


Groves, T.
Purcell, A. A.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Grundy, T. W.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)



Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Ritson, J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Saklatvala, Shapurji
Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Hayes.

Amendment proposed: In page 2, line 6, at the end, to insert the words
(2) Appointed guardians shall during their term of office present to the Minister at intervals of not longer than six months a report of their work and the manner in which they have discharged their functions, and the Minister shall as soon as may be present each report to Parliament."—[Mr. R. Richardson.]

Mr. BRIANT: The Clause remits power to an unknown body of persons, whose names may not even be divulged and who may give any scale of relief they like, perhaps the lowest possible, and the public will know nothing whatever about it. A great many Boards of Guardians do not even admit the public to the gallery and those who apply for relief may be given a lower scale under this than any other part of London. The least the House ought to ask for is that there should be some means of knowing what is done, particularly when one remembers that it is quite possible for a Board of Guardians to be defeated at one election and the whole of their places filled by other guardians who are elected, and if the Minister chooses he can appoint guardians in the place of those elected and carry on their work. I am very anxious that administrative power shall not pass into the hands of people whose names are not given to us, and apparently will not be given, and who will give any male or no scale of relief at all. At least we have a right to ask that a report shall be submitted which will give some indication as to the work of the Board. It is reasonable that the Amendment should be accepted and that West Ham should not be kept in the dark as to what happens.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member is mistaken in thinking that the names will not be known. The names will be in the Order. Therefore the House will know who are the appointed guardians. There will be no difficulty in finding out what the Guardians are doing. It will be possible to put down a question, and the Minister will be able to answer. The Guardians will have a tremendous amount of work to do, and I would not like to add to their difficulties by insisting upon formal reports from them, as suggested by hon. Members opposite.

Major CRAWFURD: The names of the guardians are not the most important
matter. We hear very little of what they are to do. It is not only a question of making a report, but of this House having an opportunity of knowing what actions are being taken by these guardians, and whether they are discharging their functions any better than the people they have replaced. One hon. Member has made reference to those of my party who live in West Ham. What he alleged may or may not be true, but whether it be true or not, one of the most important things we have to take into account is that whatever happens to these boards of guardians, the happenings should be made public. The right hon. Gentleman and the Government are doing an extreme thing in taking away the functions of an elected body, and putting them into the hands of a nominated body. When that is being done, under the control of the Minister, it is reasonable to ask that the House should be kept informed of the results of the experiment, and that periodical reports should be made.

Mr. GROVES: I object to the members of a party who have been absent nearly all day, and who could not find tellers in favour of their own Amendment, coming here now, and, with so much unction, appearing to father the opposition to the Bill. I wish to restate that in the opinion of West Ham, the people who gave information to the Minister, and who have led the campaign against the relief we give in West Ham, belong to the Liberal Party.

Captain BENN: The trouble we are in to-night arises from the fact that the Government took a whole week to discuss the Eight Hours Bill, and did not give sufficient time for discussing this Bill. I intend to discuss the Amendments, and to say what I think. The purpose of the Bill is to enable the Minister to appoint functionaires of his own to cut down the relief that is given in certain districts. All that this Amendment does is to ask that the Minister's servants shall not work in secret. It is said that their names will be given, but there is nothing in the Bill to that effect. They will meet in secret, and there is nothing in the Bill to compel them to admit the public; and now the Minister refuses the perfectly just demand that they shall make periodical reports of their meetings. I do not desire to take up the time of the
Committee, but there are such things as the merits of a proposal. The reply of the Minister is utterly inadequate. He has made no reply. It has been a derisive reply. What is the use of putting questions to the Minister? I wish there had been time to put all the aspects of this case before the Committee, but it is clear

that the Minister is not only determined to carry out this bureaucratic procedure, but to do so in secrecy.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 218.

Division No. 351.]
AYES.
[11.37 p.m.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hayday, Arthur
Sexton, James


Ammon, Charles George
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Shiels, Dr. Drummond


Barnes, A.
Hirst, G. H.
Sitch, Charles H.


Barr, J.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Smillie, Robert


Batey, Joseph
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Snell, Harry


Briant, Frank
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Broad, F. A.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)


Bromley, J.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Stamford, T. W.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Stephen, Campbell


Buchanan, G.
Kelly, W. T.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Cape, Thomas
Kennedy, T.
Sutton, J. E.


Charleton, H. C.
Lansbury, George
Taylor, R. A.


Cluse, W. S.
Lawrence, Susan
Thurtle, E.


Compton, Joseph
Lawson, John James
Tinker, John Joseph


Crawlurd, H. E.
Lindley, F. W.
Townend, A. E.


Dalton, Hugh
Lunn, William
Varley, Frank B.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
MacLaren, Andrew
Viant, S. P.


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Morris, R. H.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Day, Colonel Harry
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Duncan, C.
Murnin, H.
Welsh, J. C.


Dunnico, H.
Oliver, George Harold
Westwood, J.


Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Owen, Major G.
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Gillett, George M.
Palin, John Henry
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)


Gosling, Harry
Paling, W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Greenall, T.
Ponsonhy, Arthur
Windsor, Walter


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Potts, John S.
Wright, W.


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Purcell, A. A.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)



Groves, T.
Ritson, J.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Saklatvala, Shapurji
Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.


Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Hayes.


Harris, Percy A.
Scurr, John



NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Finburgh, S.


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Forrest, W.


Ainsworth, Major Charles
Cecil, RI. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.


Albery, Irving James
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Ganzoni, Sir John


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Clayton, G. C.
Gates, Percy


Atholl, Duchess of
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Goff, Sir Park


Atkinson, C.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Grace, John


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Grant, Sir J. A.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cope, Major William
Greene, W. P. Crawford


Balniel, Lord
Couper, J. B.
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Genston, Captain D. W.


Bean, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Conliffe, Sir Herbert
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Bethel, A.
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)


Betterton, Henry B.
Dalkeith, Earl of
Hammersley, S. S.


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Dalziel, Sir Davison
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Blundell, F. N.
Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Harland, A.


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Davies, Dr. Vernon
Harrison, G. J. C.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Dawson, Sir Philip
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)


Brass, Captain W.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Hawke, John Anthony


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Drewe, C.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)


Briscoe, Richard George
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P


Brittain, Sir Harry
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Elliot, Captain Walter E.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Elveden, Viscount
Holland, Sir Arthur


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Hopkins, J. W. W.


Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)
Everard, W. Lindsay
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Fielden, E. B.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)


Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Smithers, Waldron


Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Newton, sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Iliffe, Sir Edward H.
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F (Will'sden, E.)


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Oakley, T.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)


Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Steel, Major Samuel Strang


Jacob, A. E.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Storry-Deans, R.


Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Pennefather, Sir John
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Penny, Frederick George
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Knox, Sir Alfred
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Templeton, W. P.


Lamb, J.Q.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Thom. Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Radford, E. A.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Raine, W.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Loder, J. de V.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Looker, Herbert William
Remer, J. R.
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


Lord, Walter Greaves-
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Waddington, R.


Lumley, L. R.
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)


McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Ropner, Major L.
Warrender, Sir Victor


Macintyre, I.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Watts, Dr. T.


Macmillan, Captain H.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Wells, S. R.


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Rye, F. G.
Williams. A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


MacRobert, Alexander M.
Salmon, Major I.
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Manningharn-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Sandeman, A. Stewart
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Margesson, Captain D.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Wise, Sir Fredric


Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Sanderson, Sir Frank
Withers, John James


Merriman, F. B.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Wolmer, Viscount


Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Savery, S. S.
Womersley, W. J.


Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)


Mitchell, sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Mansell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Shepperson, E. W.
Wragg, Herbert


Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Moreing, Captain A. H.
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)



Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Skelton, A. N.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Captain Viscount Curzon and


Murchison, C. K.
Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Captain Bowyer.


Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Amendment proposed: In page 2, to leave out lines 7 to 9—[Dr. Salter.]

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 211; Noes, 87.

Division No. 352.]
AYES.
[11.46 p.m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Galbraith. J. F. W.


Albery, Irving James
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Ganzoni, Sir John


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Gates, Percy


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Clayton, G. C.
Goff, Sir Park


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Grace, John


Atholl, Duchess of
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Grant, Sir J. A.


Atkinson, C.
Couper, J. B
Greene, W. P. Crawford


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Gunston, Captain D. W.


Balniel, Lord
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Dalkeith, Earl of
Hammersley, S. S.


Bethel, A.
Daiziel, Sir Davison
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Betterton, Henry B.
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Harland, A.


Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Blundell, F. N.
Dawson, Sir Philip
Harrison, G. J. C.


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)


Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Drewe, C.
Hawke, John Anthony


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L, (Bootle)


Brass, Captain W
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Elliot, Captain Walter E
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Briscoe, Richard George
Elveden, Viscount
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Holland, Sir Arthur


Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)


Brown-Lindsay, Major H.
Everard, W. Lindsay
Hopkins, J. W. W.


Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald


Buckingham, Sir H.
Fielden, E. B.
Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Finburgh, S.
Hudson. R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Forrest, W.
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)


Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Nicholson, O (Westminster)
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Oakley, T.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Jacob, A. E.
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)


Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Steel, Major Samuel Strang


Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Owen, Major G.
Storry-Deans, R.


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Pennefather, Sir John 
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Knox, Sir Alfred
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Lamb, J. Q.
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Templeton, W. P.


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Radford, E. A.
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)


Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Raine, W.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Loder, J. de V.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Thompson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Looker, Herbert William
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Thompson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Lord, Walter Greaves
Remer, J. R.
Tryon Rt. Hon. George Clement


Lumley, L. R.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.


McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Waddington, R.


Macintyre, Ian
Ropner, Major L.
Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)


Macmillan, Captain H.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A
Warrender, Sir Victor


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Watts, Dr. T.


MacRobert, Alexander M.
Rye, F. G.
Wells, S. R.


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Salmon, Major I.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)


Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)


Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)


Margesson, Captain D.
Sandeman, A. Stewart
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Merriman. F. B.
Sanderson, Sir Frank
Wise, Sir Fredric


Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D
Withers, John James


Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Savery, S. S.
Wolmer, Viscount


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Womersley, W. J.


Monsen, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Shepperson, E. W.
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).


Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Moreing, Captain A. H.
Skelton, A. N.
Wragg, Herbert


Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Murchison, C. K.
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)



Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Smithers, Waldron
Major Cope and Captain Bowyer.


Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)




NOES.


Ammon, Charles George
Hayday, Arthur
Sexton, James


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertitlery)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)


Barnes, A.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Shiels, Dr. Drummond


Barr, J.
Hirst, G. H.
Sitch, Charles H.


Bafey, Joseph
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Briant, Frank
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Broad, F. A.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Bromley, J.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Sutton, J. E.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Taylor, R. A.


Cape, Thomas
Jones, T. I Mardy (Pontypridd)
Thurtle, E.


Charleton, H. C.
Kelly, W. T.
Tinker, John Joseph


Cruse, W. S.
Kennedy, T.
Townend, A. E.


Compton, Joseph
Lansbury, George
Varley, Frank B


Crawfurd, H. E.
Lawrence, Susan
Viant, S. P.


Dalton, Hugh
Lawson, John James
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lindley, F. W.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lunn, William
Welsh, J. C.


Day, Colonel Harry
Morris, R. H.
Westwood, J.


Duncan, C.
Murnin, H.
Wilkinson, Ellen C


Dunnico, H.
Oliver, George Harold
Williams, Dr. J. H (Lianelly)


Gillett, George M.
Paling, W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Gosling, Harry
Ponsonby, Arthur
Wilson, R. J (Jarrow)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Potts, John S.
Windsor, Walter


Greenall, T.
Purcell, A. A.
Wright, W.


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Ritson, J.



Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Saklatvala, Shapurji
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.


Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Scurr, John
Hayes.


Harris, Percy A.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Four Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.